The Captive Waters - Arctic home of the Vedas

List members , I think everyone in this group should read the following extract from Page 237 to Page 242 from "The Arctic Home of the Vedas" . It is quite evident that the Rig Veda was (allegorically) referring to a whole Earth water cycle , where in the oceans on outer surface of Earth are connected to those of inner earth via the Abyss or the bottomless pit (the North Polar opening) . It also hints at the fact that fresh water emanates from the Polar openings into the oceans on the outer surface :-

It has been noticed above that the passages, where waters are
said to be released by Indra after killing Vṛitra do not refer expressly
to the rain-cloud. The words parvata, giri and the like are used to
denote the place where the waters were confined, and âpah or
sindhus, to denote the waters themselves. Now âpah, or waters
generally, are mentioned in a number of places in the يig-Veda, and
the word in many places denotes the celestial or aerial waters. Thus
we are told that they follow the path of the gods, and are to be found
beside the sun, who is with them (I, 23, 17). In VII, 49, 2, we have an
express statement that there are waters, which are celestial (divyâh
âpah), and also those that flow in earthly
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channels (khanitrimâh, thus clearly distinguishing between terrestrial
and celestial waters. In the same verse they are said to have the sea
or the ocean for the goal; and in VIII, 69, 12, the seven rivers are said
to flow into the jaws of Varuna as into a surging abyss. Varuna again
is described as the god, who, like Indra, makes the rivers flow (II, 28,
4); and we have seen that the sage Dîrghatamas is said to have been
borne on the waters wending to their goal (I, 158, 6). But it is
needless to cite more authorities on this point, for scholars are
agreed that both celestial and terrestrial waters are mentioned in the
يig-Veda. The nature, the character, or the movements of celestial
waters appear, however, to be very imperfectly understood; and this
is the sole reason why scholars have not yet been able to connect the
release of the waters with the recovery of the dawn in the Vṛitra
legend. It seems to have been supposed that when the يig-Veda
speaks of the celestial waters (dîvyâh âpah) only the rain-waters are
intended. But this is a mistake; for, in passages which speak of the
creation of the world (X, 82, 6; 129, 3), the world is said to have once
consisted of nothing but undifferentiated waters. In short, the يigVeda, like the Hebrew Testament, expressly states that the world was
originally full of waters, and that there were the waters in the
firmament above and waters below. The Shatapatha Brâhmana (XI,
1, 6, 1), the Aitareya Upanishad (I, 1) and Manu (I, 9), all say that the
world was created from watery vapors. There can, there fore, be no
doubt that the idea of celestial waters was well-known to the
ancestors of the Vedic bards in early days; and as the celestial
waters were conceived to be the material out of which the universe
was created, it is probable that the Vedic bards understood by that
phrase what the modern scientist now understand by “ether” or “the
nebulous mass of matter” that fills all-the space in the universe. We
need not, however, go so far. It is enough for our purpose to know
that the celestial waters (divyâh âpah), or the watery vapors
(purisham), are mentioned in the يig-Veda and that the Vedic bards
considered the space or the region above, below
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and around them to be full of these celestial vapors which are said to
be coeval with the world in X, 30, 10.
It is, however, alleged by Wallis in his Cosmology of the RigVeda (p. 115) that the Vedic bards were not acquainted with the
regions below the earth, and that every thing, which is described in
the Vedas as occurring in the atmosphere, including the movements
of the sun during night and day, must, be placed in the regions of the
sky, which were over the head of these bards. This view appears to
be adopted by Macdonell in his Vedic Mythology; and if it be correct,
we shall have to place all the waters in the upper heaven. But I do not
think that Wallis has correctly interpreted the passages quoted by
Prof. Zimmer in support of his theory that a rajas (region) exists below
the earth; and we cannot, therefore accept Wallis’ conclusions, which
are evidently based upon prepossessions derived most probably from
the Homeric controversy. Prof. Zimmer refers to three passages (VI,
9, 1; VII, 80, 1; V, 81, 4) to prove that a rajas beneath the earth was
known to the Vedic people. The first of these passages is the wellknown verse regarding the bright and the dark day. It says, “the bright
day and the dark day, both roll the two rajas by the well-known
paths.” Here the two rajas are evidently the upper and the lower
celestial hemisphere; but Wallis asks us to compare this verse with I,
185, 1, where day and night are said “to revolve like two wheels,” that
is, to circle round from east to west, the one rising as the other goes
down, and observes that “We are in no way obliged to consider that
the progress of either is continued below the earth.” I am unable to
understand how we can draw such an inference from these
passages. In VI, 9, 1, quoted by Zimmer, two rajas or atmospheres
are men tinned, and the bright and the dark day are said to roll along
both these rajas or regions. But if we hold with Wallis that the
progress of either begins in the east and stops in the west, without
going below the earth, the whole movement becomes confined to one
rajas or region and does not extend over the two. Zimmer’s
interpretation is, therefore, not only more
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probable, but the only one that explains the use of rajasî (in the dual),
or the two regions, in the verse. The next passage (VII, 80, 1) is also
misunderstood by Wallis. It describes the dawn as “unrolling the two
regions (rajasî), which border on each other (samante), revealing all
things. Now; the dawn always appears on the horizon and the two
rajas, which it unrolls and which are said to border on each other,
must meet on this horizon. They can therefore only represent the
lower and the upper celestial sphere. But Wallis would have us
believe that both these rajasî are above the earth, and that narrowing
down together towards east and west they meet on the horizon like
two arched curves over one’s head! The artificial character of this
explanation is self-evident, and I see no reason why we should adopt
it in preference to the simple and natural explanation of Zimmer,
unless we start with a preconceived notion that references to the
regions below the earth ought not to be and cannot be found in the
يig-Veda. The third passage pointed out by Zimmer is V, 81, 4, which
says “O Savitṛi! Thou goest round (parîyase) the night, on both sides
(ubhayatah). “Here Wallis proposes to translate parîyase by
“encompassest;” but parîyase ordinarily means “goest round,” and
there is no reason why the idea of motion usually implied by it should
be here abandoned. It will thus be seen that the conclusion of Wallis
is based upon the distortion of passages which Zimmer interprets in a
simpler and a more natural way: and that Zimmer’s view is more in
accordance with the natural meaning of these texts. But if an express
passage
be still needed to prove conclusively that the region below the earth
was known to the Vedic bards, we refer to VII, 104, 11, where the
bard prays for the destruction of his enemies and says, “Let him
(enemy) go down below the three earths (tisrah prîthivih adhah).”
Here the region below the three earths is expressly mentioned; and
since the enemy is to be condemned to it, it must be a region of
torment and pain like the Hades. In X, 152, 4, we read, “One who
injures ms, let him be sent to the: nether darkness (adharam tamah),”
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and, comparing this with the last passage, it is evident that the region
below the earth was conceived as dark. In III, 73, 21, we have, “Let
him, who hates us, fall downwards (adharah),” and in 11, 12, 4, the
brood of the Dasyu, whom India killed, is said to be “sent to the
unknown nether world (adharam guhâkah).” These passages directly
show that region below the earth was not only known to the Vedic
bards, but was conceived as filled with darkness, and made the
scene of India’s tight with Vṛitra. It may, however, be alleged that
“below the three earths” may simply mean underneath the surface of
the earth. But, in that case, it was not necessary to speak of all the
three earths, and since we are told that the region is below all the
three earths, it can refer only to the nether world. This is further
proved by the passage which describes what is above the three
earths. The expression, corresponding to tisrah prîthivih adhah or
“the region below the three earths,” will be tisrah prîthivih upari or the
region above the three earths,” and as a matter of fact this expression
is also found in the يig-Veda. Thus in I, 34, 8, we are told that “the
Ashvins, moving above the three earths (tisrah prîthivih upari), protect
the vault or the top of heaven (divo nâkam) through days and nights”;
and Ashvins are said to have come on their car from a distant region
(parâvat) in the preceding verse of the same hymn. The phrase divo
nâkam occurs several times in the يig-Veda and means the top or
the vault of the heaven. Thus in IV, 13, 5, the sun is said to guard
(pâti) the vault of the heaven (divo nâkam); and as regards the threefold division of the earth it is mentioned in several places in the يigVeda (I, 102, 8; IV, 53, 5; VII, 87, 5), and also in the Avesta (Yt. XIII,
3; Yasna, XI, 7). In IV, 53, 5, this three-fold division is further
extended to antariksha, rajas, rochana and dyu or heaven. This
shows what we are to understand by “three earths.” It is the one and
the same earth, regarded as three-fold; and since the Ashvins are
described as protecting the vault of heaven by moving “above the
three earths,” it is clear that in contrast with the vault above, a nether
region, as far below
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the three earths as the heaven is above them, must have been
conceived and denoted by the phrase “below the three earths,” and
that the latter expression did not merely mean an interterranean
ground. When we meet with two such phrases as the heaven “above
the three earths,” and the region “below the three earths,” in the يigVeda, phrases, which cannot be mistaken or misunderstood, the
hypothesis that the Vedic bards were not acquainted with the nether
world at once falls to the ground.

Regards

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"The seven rivers are said to flow into the jaws of the God Varuna , as into a surging Abyss"

The above statement taken from the extract , is a very important clue to the existence of some sort of Abyss in the North Polar region , which I suspect is from the perspective of the Hollow Earthers observing their 7 Hollow Earth rivers "falling up" into the outer (Arctic) ocean...!

Regards

Sidhartha,

You got it oh so right in tthe first paragraph wherein you stated: " It is quite evident that the Rig Veda was (allegorically) referring to a whole Earth water cycle , where in the oceans on outer surface of Earth are connected to those of inner earth via the Abyss or the bottomless pit (the North Polar opening)"

Cheers!

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Thanks @deandddd...I recently had this strange epiphany , that those mysterious ancient Buddhist paintings/illustrations of a whirlpool at the North Pole may not make sense to an observer on Earth's outer surface - but what if that was a perspective of Hollow Earthers ??

**I mean what if that whirlpool does exist , except that it exists on the other side , that is when the river waters of Hollow Earth drain "upwards" into the Abyss of the Arctic ocean (an Abyss from the Hollow Earthers perspective) , they do so , after passing through a whirlpool ??!!

Regards

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Hmmmmm. Contextually how would The Smoky God's experiences fit into this if we are to believe it to be a true relation of their experiences?

@Soretna , the Rig Veda has several intriguing references to the "aerial waters" , or the "celestial waters"...my hunch is all such references are actually correlating with the massive rivers of Hollow Earth which carry enormous quantities of fresh water "outside" into the Arctic Ocean , via the Abyss (North Polar opening) . Also , the final descent (rather ascent from outer surface of Earth point of view) of these Hollow Earth rivers occurs through some sort of spiralling motion (whirlpool effect !)...

Therefore , those ancient images from Buddhist texts , depicting a strange ICE-FREE whirlpool at the North Pole are REAL (!!) , just that those cannot be seen in the Arctic Ocean on the surface , as this phenomenon occurs on the other side of the Polar Opening (inside Hollow Earth)...I am getting goose bumps with this sudden realisation - it hit me like a ton of bricks !

I now suspect that navigating a ship or small vessel from the Arctic Ocean , into Hollow Earth is especially challenging due the swirling waters of the whirlpool , on the other side (inside Hollow Earth) ! It might indeed be acting like a natural barrier , preventing vessels from outer surface of the Earth from reaching inside Hollow Earth . This may well be one of the reasons , why any sailors that did drift across did not survive to tell the tale - it could also explain why so many mammoths , still living inside the Hollow Earth , get trapped in that whirlpool and then freeze to death , as soon as they are "ejected" out into the Arctic Ocean on the surface...

Olaf Jansen and his father might just have gotten lucky to have achieved a safe passage through the North Polar opening :))

***I firmly believe all Hollow Earth researchers should thoroughly read up this chapter from "Arctic home of the Vedas" - it contains very deep insights about the whole Earth water cycle , something that cannot be found in any other text - ancient or modern .

Regards

Soretna,

Well, the Smokey God tells that Olaf and Jens were swept downwards into the hollow earth.

But what if there is an ingoing current, and an outward flowing current? Or more than one orifice, one being ingoing, and the other outgoing?

What if you tried to sail in, and chose the wrong one?

Cheers!

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@Soretna , @deandddd , there is a cryptic reference in "The Smoky God" , to the "ABNORMAL freshets of water , that twice every year , sweep everything before them" .

I think the above statement indicates something unusual happens at the place where the rivers of Hollow Earth , discharge their waters into the Arctic Ocean on the other side of the ABYSS , by spiralling downwards (rather upwards , from our perspective on the outer surface of Earth) ! This abnormality is probably explained by the whirlpool depicted in ancient Buddhist art...not just that , Arctic explorers have often mentioned , unusual tides in the far North , small gravel islands forming out of nowhere and the crushing sound of giant icebergs being tossed about , by some unknown force , near the North Pole (which is actually emerging from the North Polar opening)...

Regards

So @deandddd has hit upon my line of thinking with regards to multiple orifices. I think this is the key that everyone has been missing in these discussions as it makes the most sense with the previously discussed "thin" polar crusts.

Furthermore I think the concept and etymology of the word "ABYSS" is very important:

I think it is plausible to consider that the word abyss did not mean that to which we ascribe it today. It seems as though "abyss" was more of a conduit or passage instead of a place of seemingly infinite depth or a pit as is used today...

Can we dig into the root of "abyss" further? What was this word pre-Greek "abyssos" and the Hebrew "tehom"? They allude to some things in that article, but what other options do we have for seeking true meaning an intent? Sanskrit? Cuneiform iterations? Others?

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@Soretna That is remarkable. I had the same thought come to my mind just the other day about that word, "abyss" having that meaning in that context. I felt like the word denotes a passageway to the hollow earth, first going through the Hellish Crustal Realm, but eventually opening up on top to the hollow concave inside. I also thought that an "abyss" can be seemingly endless because of the massive nature of the caves which wind around and around the earth's shell / crustal region.

Yes, consider this, the Greek: a-byssos
a: without
byssos: floor

Sounds like a conduit or passage to me. Very simple.

But I must ask: what happens if we break byssos down further? What can we obtain?

I do not know if this reasoning has any meaning to it, but, I will continue:
byssos supposedly has a Hebrew origin:

בּוּץ - the letters: "beth / bayit", "vav", "tsadi" - pronounced: "boots"

Here is a graphic of the letters without the dageshim (plural dagesh, dot multipliers) and with the tsadi being a non-final form for recognizability:

word

They say this means "to bleach" or "to be white" (WHICH I DO NOT BELIEVE TO BE CORRECT: see this updated thought below about the Arctic + mist / fog: The Captive Waters - Arctic home of the Vedas - #29 by Soretna).

Strange.

Now perhaps consider the "kabbalistic" definition of the letters:

בּ (beth / bayit):

  • Eve,
  • Man's first residence,
  • Womb
  • To come forth
  • This also has a "dagesh" or dot in the middle of the letter which signifies a "doubling" or multiplication / strengthening.
  • Number: 2

וּ (vav):

  • Nail
  • Divine decree or covenant
  • Also a vowel marker ("o" or "oo"); this has a middle dagesh which makes it "oo"
  • Might also be considered a "connector" between concepts/letters.
  • Number: 6

ץ (tsadi / tzadhe) - final form, non final is: צ

  • Zion or Zi
  • Repentant saints
  • Righteous Zadok (priest)
  • Virgin
  • Virtue
  • Number: 90

The numeric value should be 98.

Again, I would like to see such an analysis of the Sanskrit and/or Cuneiform if possible, as well as equivalent words used in those to check alignment + difference and so on.

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One might paint a picture with the above letters together with a connection or conduit between "home" and "Zi(on)" or one of the other meanings of tzadi. Hmmmm. It is interesting how ancient languages can play out and are self defining when you know the basic pictographic roots.

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@Soretna The following note appears on the Etymonline page which you linked to:

"This is a compound of a- "without" (see a- (3)) + byssos "bottom," a word of uncertain origin possibly related to bathos "depth" [Liddell & Scott]. Watkins suggests a connection with the root of bottom (n.); Beekes suggests it is pre-Greek."

I dug into their bibliography page and found the books which they're referencing; and I also found entries relating to the root words "byssos" or "bathos."

  • This book contains a very intriguing entry on "bathos" - last entry all the way to the right. Also you'll need to zoom in to read the text. This one specifically mentions a relation to caverns and the underworld.
  • This book contains a brief entry on "byssos" at the bottom left, third entry up from the bottom.
  • This book contains an entry on "bathos" on the left page, second column to the right, first entry in the column. This author postulates that the word is also related to the "depth" of someone's grief or passion.

Screenshots for mirroring purposes (in case the original links are deleted):

abyss_2

All of them seem to relate to the ocean or the underworld. Lots of things to dig into and contemplate.

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@Ephraimite very interesting guys. Being from Cyprus we use "byssos" to mean "behind". It is also past tense by use of the last "s".

M

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Sidhartha,

Yes, I think that the rivers spew out fresh water into the ocean, and that it "bottlenecks" and condenses at the orifice.

But the whirlpools still may be explained by some smaller orifices through which probably only water, fresh water, flows.

Cheers!

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@deandddd , @Soretna , I think it's an interesting possibility - that of 2 different Polar openings...I will try to find a corresponding reference in the Vedic literature .

Regards

It's not just 2 different polar openings, but the possibility of many. The reason being is that the crust is thinner at the poles. The models that some seem to be adamant about (such as Rodney Cluff and others) of the crust being the same thickness at the equatorial region as compared to the poles is not possible. The crust MUST be thinner at the poles and @deandddd's previous presentations on the Mars visual data suggests that this holds true for planet(oid)s generally. It also explains many other things regarding animal (land based + ocean based) migration / observations as well. And so many more things, including exploratory results and anecdotal relations (stories).

You can (perhaps poorly) visualize this as leavened bread pizza (American style) that has the thicker crust on the outside from centrifugal spinning of the dough done by a bad (:smile_cat:) pizza maker. The middle of the pizza could develop very thin portions and holes in it and the outer would remain thick. When cooked it would be further pronounced with pockets and strange stretching, etc. I think you get the idea - but multiple holes and pockets form and - where thin - the holes are most easily seen and pass from the top to the pan on the bottom.

It would be good to see corroboration or suggestion thereof too from Vedic literature as well. Thanks!

@Soretna , regarding your earlier post about ABYSS - I think the Sumerian ABZU is the origin of the word ABYSS...both have a similar connotation !

I think the mysterious holes opening up all over Siberia , seem to corroborate your theory of multiple smaller Polar openings , given the thinning of Earth's crust in those regions - like veritable stretch marks on the skin :))

Regards

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Sidhartha,

I think that the "aereal waters" of the Rig Veda description, that flow downwards, could be ethereal flows from celestial realms higher up towards the Pole Star, and that solidify into physical water when they reach the physical realm.

In the Vedic literatures, we read of celestial beings that appear through fire which has been made "soft" like the light of the Moon and which doesn't burn; and this is attributed to exposure to the mantras/frequencies that were vibrated through the threads that the brahmin chanters wore. The celestial being would walk out of the fire and his ethereal body would essentially solidify upon exposed to the Earthly atmosphere. But the physical bodies of the celstials and their celestial neurological systems apparently maintained their superior development from the celestial realms. And they would copulate with warrior caste women to also produce superior human warriors, but not quite the same as them. This is exactly what Plato explained; that the celesttial Poseidon came and improved the bloodlines, but after generations of dilution, common human qualities made their appearance again, and the Atlantean kings became sinful.

Anyway, the celestial/ethereal waters could solidify upon entering the Earth's atmosphere or the hollow earth environment.

If there are magnetic ropes that connect even Saturn - which is very, very far off - with The Sun, then there can be particle flows that originate from way up above us, in the direction of the Pole Star, and that reach the Earth.

And from the Rig Veda statement, it seems that the celestial, ethereal flow turns into water. Remember, from the subtle elements come the grosser, physical elements: from ether comes air then fire then water then finally earth/physical matter. The ethereal flows pass through air, so why wouldn't they take on the nature of air? When the celestial warriors that have been called upon pass through the fire and step out into the physical realm, their bodies take on physical qualities. So the celestial flows should pass to a physical airy state, then to a fiery state. We already know that higher frequency particles, such as gamma, burn when they pass through the Earth's physical realm. But then they should follow the sequence and pass into a watery state.

I think that, although all possibilities must be considered, we should try to justify the frank statements of the Vedas. It is just that, at the moment, our knowledge of particle physics suffers from severe paucity. And then nobody can imagine how a celestial river can flow through space.

Cheers!

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The problem we have with ABZU is a lack of depth in understanding of the Cuneiform languages and correlation of these with Sanskrit - if it exists. I hypothesize that ancient Sanskrit is the Vedic tongue as we have discussed before and either the Cuneiform languages are either offshoots or from another society that is juxtaposed to the Vedic society...