American Indian, Underground Worlds Folklore

"Many Indian tribes have some sort of legend related to space travelers or
'ancient ones' which are believed to have originated from the sky or from
within the earth. These space travelers or underground dwellers are credited

by numerous Native American legends with being the originaters of the human
species or for assisting humans in learning a variety of skills from
agricultural to medicine."

Underground dwellers- American indian folklore has so much about cavern
worlds in it. I already found that page which translates the name " Cherokee
" as ' cave dweller.' I wonder if we could make some contact with them. Of
course, the tribal hierarchies are quite infiltrated and quite mainstream,
and the indian children all go to regular schools and get indoctrinated, (
along with the good part of education that they receive, of course ). I
don't imagine that there is any understanding left anyhow, just some old
legends that they themselves hardly believe.

Posted by Dean


The Underworld of the Maxcuxies


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Apache Underground

And whether they are underground or overground, they speak a dialect of Mongolian commonly known as Tartar Chinese. Notice that the source is the University of Arizona LIbrary. How did they get there? By underground tunnel systems?


(iii) Linguistics: • Our attention was drawn by one reader to the following extract:
“… The Tartar Chinese speak the dialect of the Apaches. The Apaches bear a striking resemblance to the Tartar. In about the year 1885, W. B. Horton, who had served as County Superintendent of Schools, at Tucson, was appointed Post Trader at Camp Apache, and went to San Francisco to purchase his stock, where he hired a Chinese cook. His kitchen adjoined his sleeping apartment, and one evening while in his room he heard in the kitchen some indians talking. Wondering what they were doing there at that hour of the night, he opened the door and found his cook conversing with an Apache. He asked his cook where he had acquired the indian language. The cook said: “He speak all same me. I Tartar Chinese; he speak same me, little different, not much.”

At Williams, in Navajo County, is another Tartar Chinaman, Gee Jim, who converses freely with the Apaches in his native language. From these facts it would seem that the Apache is of Tartar origin. From the fact that the Apache language was practically the same as that of the Tartar Chinese, color is given to the theory advanced by Bancroft in his “Native Races,” Volume 5, p. 33, et seq., that Western America was “originally peopled by the Chinese, or, at least, that the greater part of the new world civilization may be attributed to these people…” Reference Source: The University of Arizona Library “Books of the South West” Chapter 1, Indians of Arizona:

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List Members,

The behavior of the apaches against the U S Cavalry at Hembrillo Basin, the role played by the Macuxies on the Venezuela-Brazil border, and the role played by the Murcego Indians near the Roncador Mountains in Brazil hint that indian populations are often situated near the cave openings to cavern worlds below in order to carry out sentinel duty, so to speak.

The Sioux massacre during Custer’s Last Stand at the Little Big Horn River is a case in point, believe it or not.

Custer led a force of over 500 men on a mission of reconnaissance two days ahead of the army troops advancing behind him. His mission was to scout out the Sioux encampment at the Little Big Horn River, and to engage them at will. He had several indian scouts with him whose tribe was an enemy of the Sioux. Therefore, they were trustworthy.

They were trustworthy, but they became somber and scared because they found several recent camps made along the way that had been used just days before. Their opinion was that these camps indicated that a very large number of Sioux Indians were on their way to congregate at the Sioux camp. Their number and origin was worrisome.

When Custer arrived at the Sioux camp at the Little Big Horn, it was larger than anticipated; as much as five miles long beside the river banks. But he scanned it well and concluded that it was empty of warriors because he only spied women and children through his binoculars. But his scouts assured him that there were thousands of warriors associated with the camp, and that they shouldn’t be far away. Custer calculated that they had gone buffalo hunting and that they must be a couple of days away, but the scouts showed fear and told him that they were all in great and immediate danger. Custer figured that they were cowards and dismissed them on the spot.

Custer felt that he could attack the village, and charge in and shoot of rifles such that the women and children would become frightened and run off. Then he calculated the he would be able to destroy their supplies and capture rifles and destroy ammunition. He divided his group into four: a group of fifty would go up on a bluff with the supply wagons and stay there; a group of 100 would attack from the middle section; a group of 150 would attack on the far side (North?); and he would attack from the South.

And his group charged first, with him at the lead. As he was crossing the river, four Sioux came out of teepees and shot at him and him only. He fell, and the others saved him and rode back a few hundred yards away from the river banks. As they tarried with Custer and wouldn’t abandon him, they were engaged by horsemen who had been waiting behind the hills which paralleled the river. They detained Custer’s group while Sioux on foot came running out of the teepees where they had been hiding! Custer’s 250 men were overwhelmed by a wave of thousands of Sioux on foot who, curiously, were armed mostly with crude mallets fashioned with stones and tied to a handle. From beginning to end, it was all over within twenty minutes.

The other two groups got wind of what was going on and retreated just in time because more of the same came out after them. The retreated to the bluff wherefrom they defended themselves for two days until the main body caught up and dispersed what was left of the Sioux.

Now for the interesting part. The Sioux braves were all horsemen, the Sioux had no infantry, so to speak. So why were there so many warriors on foot? The great majority of the warriors were the ones on foot. And according to the other two groups, there were between 5,000 and 6,000 Sioux attackers; there were literally a few thousand braves on foot! And all of the Sioux were equipped with rifles or at least bows and arrows. How could it be that they had thousands armed with nothing but hand mallets? And once the Army arrived, those Sioux on foot were nowhere to be found, period! The Army sent out searching parties to find them, all around. The prairie land was flat with no forests. They spent a couple of days ranging far and wide, on horseback, looking for a few thousand Sioux running away of foot and found nothing, nothing at all. Not one Sioux.

Then the Army concluded that they were from the reservation and had left the reservation to hunt buffalo and decided to participate when it became known that Custer was approaching. But why weren’t they found walking back; it would have taken some time? And how could they have gone buffalo hunting on foot?

There is something else that the Army did when the interviews with the Sioux were over and the searching parties came back. There was/is a huge, bowl-shaped canyon roughly five miles away from the camp which was supposedly sacred ground where the Sioux carried out their ceremonies. The Army went down there already prepared with wagons of gunpowder barrels and headed towards a cave opening which, apparently, did not take days to find. They put the barrels in the cave opening and blew it to smithereens! They collapsed it.

I am not a mathematician but I can put two and two together. The reason that the Army could find not Sioux on foot is because they had walked the five miles back to the canyon, to the cave, and had already gone back home to their cavern world by the time the main body of the Army had arrived.

The Sioux population in that region had the purpose of sentinel duty, for one thing.

And this business of having sacred ground near your reservation is very informative. There are tribes in South America that demand that their sacred lands be given to them as reservations that are off limits to anyone else, and this is done. (I imagine that the powers-that-be are aware of the situation, but that is the best way to take care of it) So if you want to know where the entrances are to underground worlds, just find the indian reservations that were given to the tribes because that is where their sacred lands are, and then you know that you are near.

By the way, the Sioux tribe is very Asiatic in their genetics, and their language is etymologically linked to Asiatic languages, although I don’t have specific information on that.

Anyway, keep the Asiatic connection in mind, and I’ll post again about such subjects in a day or two.



Chinese cave heavens ...


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Just to throw in something extra.


List Members,

Here is the story of the Grand Canyon and that cave entrance halfway up the sheer side, and the huge auditorium-sized room that was found after a one-mile trek after passing through the cave entrance. This is the nicest presentation that I have seen of it:

And here is the one about the simiolar find in the Panamint mountains near the California/Nevada border:

Zero in on the "asiatic" connection; it's something I am developing.


Speaking of my "asiatic" theme, I should have at least said this:

The pueblo Indians live in Adobe houses that are replicas of Tibetan adobe houses. And Swastikas have been found etched in the rocks in the Pueblo Indian regions of Arizona and New Mexico.
Tunnel systems and cavern worlds are reputed to exist all over the New Mexico-Arizona area.

I hate to jump from one region of North America to the other, but a large cache of Chinese coins were uncovered by a tractor that was digging out the foundation for the construction of a house in the Seattle Washington area a few years ago. I just remember that they were not gold coins, not so valuable.

Gavin Menzes is one person who wrote about it.

In fact, if you read the two books by Gavin Menzies, you'll realize the extension of the Chinese involvement in the Americas before the times of Columbus. It is flabbergasting.

In the latter part of the 1800s, the US Cavalry supressed the indian nations of the western half of the USA. Now the Chinese are bringing the struggle to us in their typical fashion; they are underming our culture and demographics fist. That's how they did it to the Mongolians.

What follows won't be pretty, and it seems that we have woken up too late.


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In the book 1434, by Gavin Menzies, on Page 271, it is stated: “There are still over 100 villages in the Ancash region of Peru that retain their Chinese names today. Incan people have East Asian admixture in their blood to such an extent that their DNA profile could almost be called Chinese.” Further on in the same page, this comment is developed. Insofar as other types of Chinese influence is concerned, he dedicates about 6 pages in the book to the theme.

The Orellana Expedition was Spanish, and the first one to go from the Pacific to the Atlantic coast; this was via The Amazon River. \when the expedition was still in the Peruvian tributary basin of The Amazon, it spend a few months in one Indian village which was the last one until much further downstream. They were told by the indians one day that some special men would come who wanted to talk to them, and that everything was fine.

Well, four men showed up and they chatted with Orellana and his Chronicler, Father Carvajal, for a few hours. They were described by Father Carvajal as being very refined and having gracious manners. This is unusual because Amazon Indians have been described in other places as quite uncouth. But these men were not indians. They had very fine black hair, just as the Chinese do. And they wear wearing tunics of white cloth which was of a very fine weave, nothing akin to what the indians wore, or what could be found in anywhere in South America at the time. This was in 1548. And there was fine bordering, too.

And they were tall, quite tall. Father Carvajal wrote that they were at least a palm taller (8 inches) than the tallest Spaniard. How tall would that be? Please read:

From the Quora website:

“This graph above shows that mean height in Britain was roughly the same during the periods 850–1066 and 1200– 1500 as it is today. ... The people of 1000 years ago in Europe were not much shorter, on average , than we are ... “

“As usual Northern Europeans tend to be taller side and perhaps are the tallest people in the world at the time as well as they are today. (generally speaking) so Spanish conquistador might have been like 5′4″, 5′5″, & 5′6 1/2″ the native Aztecs men might have been 5′1″-5′4″.”

Now, if the Spaniards were 5’5” on the average, the tallest might be 6 feet. And 6 inches more might mean that these visitors were 6’ 5” to 6’8” at the maximum.

What would account for such height? Well, people who live in cavern worlds have been reported to be taller than surface folk, probably because of being sheltered from the harmful rays of The Sun.

Let’s assume that these people were not only Asiatic, but Chinese. After all, there is abundant evidence of a Chinese presence on the other side of Peru, on the Pacific coast. So does this mean that there are Chinese living in cavern worlds in the Peruvian Amazons?

The Shining Path Guerilla Movement practices Chinese Maoist communism, and it is situated in the Peruvian Amazon. The female, Amazon warriors are known to that region, too, and 50% of the guerilla fighters of that movement are women, and their leader is/was a woman, at least, a few years ago the leader was a woman.

A cache of statuettes carved in Chinese jade, no less, was found buried in a small cave just upstream from the City of Santarem, which is something like halfway down the Amazon.

On the third voyage of Columbus he went to Venezuela and sailed up the Orinoco River. He came upon a group of about 50 Chinese miners. He went back to Cuba and told everyone that South America was China, and that Cuba must be Japan. They had to have a few long talks with him.

And then … The indians of Martinique told Columbus of women who lived in the bottom of a long cave that went below the level of the Caribbean Sea. He was told that they invited the Caribbean Indians for two months every year to come to the Cavern world home and copulate with them, just as the Amazons that we are familiar with used to do in Lesbos off Greece.

The Caribbeans, in turn, have much Chinese genetics and, etymologically, their language seems to spring from Chinese. Their home island was Hispañola, where the Dominican Republic, and the capital Santo Domingo, are today.

A couple of decades ago a private researcher went with a Geiger counter to the uplands of North Carolina to where it was known that there were pre Columbian villages of the Cherokee tribe. He found a gold coin in the dirt from the Ming dynasty. The Cherokee define themselves as “The Cave People”.

The Cherokees were willing to incorporate themselves into American society. They became Christians, translated the Bible into their language, learned Our letters and how to write, incorporated towns which follows laws, et cetera, but they were suddenly marched off on The Trail of Tears to Oklahoma. Why?

They were marched off with the Creek and Muscogee tribe (same thing), and the Creeks speak a dialect of Quechua which is spoken in the Andes. The Creek language, cuisine, designs and clothes can be very well traced to the tribes on the eastern slopes of the Andes touching that tributary basin of the Amazon River. Well, well well! Lo and behold!

This means that, at one time, that race and tribe stretched all the way from the Andes in Peru through Venezuela to the Antilles Islands up through Florida as far as Georgia.

A few hundred miles above St John’s in Canada there was found the remains of an ancient, Chinese township which was dedicated to iron mining and which had facilities for crushing the ore. From there, the fastest route to China was the Northwest Passage through the Arctic.

When the Chinese sent off their ships of journey of exploration and to map places that they knew existed, they sent a small fleet to the Arctic with the specific goal of shooting the North Star with a sextant-like instrument, from various points.

It seems that the Chinese have had, shall we say, active cavern worlds in North America as recently as Custer’s Last Stand, and in South America in the 1540s (Orellana’s expedition) Amazon tributary river basin. Is it the people that Orellana met with, or their descendants, that are behind the current Shining Path Guerilla movement ? Did the underground nuclear testing of the 1980s destroy the Apache underground near Hembrillo Mountain, where the Apaches fought the cavalry and then disappeared into the mountains through tunnel systems?

I’m sure you all have noticed that, since WWII, China has been on the move, so to speak.

Do get the books of Gavin Menzies entitled 1421 and 1434 and familiarize yourselves with the Chinese past connections with the Americas. I think that we are getting an idea about exactly who it is that is running the show in cavern worlds below our feet.

Either stock up on your ammunition, or go learn some Chinese.

If you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em …


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I think that what we read about below are underground populations in Mexico who have a presence on the surface, perhaps in order to protect the entrances.

They grow very tall because, underground, they are protected from the presence of The Sun's unrefined rays.

I don't think that there is any Chinese connection here.


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Just look at what's down there.


Subterranean Tunnels & the Hollow Earth
My Search for Tunnels in the Earth
Part Two
From "World Explorer", Vol. 2, No. 3.

by David Hatcher Childress

All are architects of fate,
Working the walls of time:
Some with massive deeds and great;
Some with lesser rhyme.
-Longfellow "The Builders"

In his book "Jungle Paths and Inca Ruins", Dr.William Montgomery McGovern

"Near this fortress [Sacsayhuaman] are several strange caverns reaching far
into the earth. Here altars to the Gods of the Deep were carved out of the
living rock, and the many bones scattered about tell of the sacrifices which
were offered up here. The end of one of these caverns, Chincana, has never
been found. It is supposed to communicate by a long underground passage with
the Temple of the Sun in the heart of Cuzco. In this cavern is supposed, and
with good reason, to be hidden a large part of the golden treasure of the
Inca Emperors which was stored away lest it fall into the hands of the
Spaniards. But the cavern is so huge, so complicated, and its passages are so
manifold, that its secret has never been discovered."

"One man, indeed, is said to have found his way underground to the Sun
Temple, and when he emerged, to have had two golden bars in his hand. But his
mind had been affected by days of blind wandering in the subterranean caves,
and he died almost immediately afterwards. Since that time many have gone
into the cavern-never to return again. Only a month or two before my arrival
the disappearance of three prominent people in this Inca cave caused the
Prefect of the Province of Cuzco to wall in the mouth of the cavern, so that
the secret and the treasures of the Incas seem likely to remain forever

Another story, which may well be derived from the same source, tells of a
treasure hunter who went into the tunnels and wandered through the maze for
several days. One morning, about a week after the adventurer had vanished, a
priest was conducting mass in the church of Santo Domingo. The priest and his
congregation were astonished to hear sudden, sharp rappings from beneath the
church's stone floor. Several worshipers crossed themselves and murmured
about the devil. The priest quieted his congregation, then directed the
removal of a large stone slab from the floor (this was the converted Temple
of the Sun!). The group was surprised to see the treasure hunter emerge with
a bar of gold in each hand.

Even the Peruvian government got into the act of exploring these Cuzco
tunnels, ostensibly for scientific purposes. The Peruvian Seria Documental
del Peru describes an expedition undertaken by staff from Lima University in
1923. Accompanied by experienced speleologists, the party penetrated the
trapezoid-shaped tunnels starting from an entrance atCuzco.

They took measurements of the subterranean aperture and advanced in the
direction of the coast. After a few days, members of the expedition at the
entrance of the tunnel lost contact with the explorers inside, and no
communication came for twelve days. Then a solitary explorer returned to the
entrance, starving. His reports of an underground labyrinth of tunnels and
deadly obstacles would make an Indiana Jones movie seem tame by comparison.
His tale was so incredible that his colleagues declared him mad. To prevent
further loss of life in the tunnels, the police dynamited the entrance.

More recently, the big Lima earthquake of 1972 brought to light a tunnel
system beneath that coastal city. During salvage operations, workers found
long passages no one had ever known existed. The following systematic
examination of Lima's foundations led to the astonishing discovery that large
parts of the city were undercut by tunnels, all leading into the mountains.
But their terminal points could no longer be ascertained because they had
collapsed during the course of the centuries. Did the Cuzco tunnels explored
in 1923 lead to Lima? As farback as the 1940s, Harold Wilkins, in his books
("Mysteries of Ancient South America" and "Secret Cities of Old South
America") wrote that they did.

Tunnels to the Hidden City of Paititi?

In my quest for the lost treasure of the Incas and the tunnel systems
associated with it, I joined up in the search for Paititi, the ultimate lost
city of the Incas according to Cuzco legends.

While the Incas placed some of their hoard in the Cuzco tunnel system to hide
it from the conquering Spanish, other treasure (including 14 gold-clad
mummies of the former Inca emperors removed from the Sun Temple) was sent by
llama caravan into the Antisuyo region of South America, the mountain jungle
area east of Cuzco. The caravan's destination was a mountain-jungle city
called "Paikikin" in Quechua which is supposed to mean "like the other." The
Spanish called this city El Gran Paititi.

It is well known that the Incan Empire at its height stretched from north of
Quito in Ecuador, south along the Andes and west to the coast, all the way
down into central Chile. What is not generally known is just how far east the
Incas had set up their roads, trade routes and cities. The Incas did have a
trade network that stretched eastward deep into the jungles on the east side
of the Andes. Salt was frequently carried across the mountains in exchange
for gold and feathers. According to Jorge Arellano, director of the Institute
of Archaeology in La Paz, Bolivia, Inca ruins have been found in the Bolivian
state of Beni, which is several hundred miles east of the Andes and in dense
jungle. He says that a series of small fortresses in the jungle form a line
in an easterly direction. He believes that the Incas used these fortresses as
stop overs on their migration from the Madre de Dios area of Peru, believed
by some to be the site of Paititi.

Though there is little doubt that Paititi did exist, there is a great deal of
myth surrounding this lost city. Harold Wilkins believes that the Incas
escaped from the Spanish after the battle of Ollantaytambo by fleeing through
a branch of the tunnel system discussed earlier, heading east toward Paititi.
This may well be true, though it was hardly necessary for the Incas to have
fled through a tunnel. They could have left by canoe, then crossed the
mountains using the excellent Inca roads.

Assuming this tunnel did exist, Wilkins thinks it went due east from Cuzco,
through the jungles, to the empire of Paititi. He indicates that Paititi was
a separate kingdom, ruled by mysterious white men whose king was known as the
"Tiger King." According to Wilkins, Paititi means "jaguar." The Tiger King,
or Jaguar King, lived in a white house by a great lake.

In 1681, a Jesuit missionary named Fray Lucero wrote of information given to
him by Indians in the Rio Huallagu area of northeastern Peru. They told him
that the lost city of Gran Paititi lay behind the forests and mountains east
of Cuzco.

The Jesuit wrote, "This empire of Gran Paytite has bearded, white Indians.
The nation called Curveros, these Indians told me, dwell in a place called
Yurachuasi or the 'white house.' For king, they have a descendant of the Inca
Tupac Amaru, who with 40,000 Peruvians, fled far away into the forests,
before the face of the conquistadors of Francisco Pizarro's day in AD 1533.
He took with him a rich treasure, and the Castilians who pursued him fought
each other in the forests, leaving the savage Chuncho Indios, who watched
their internecine struggles, to kill off the wounded and shoot the survivors
with arrows. I myself have been shown plates of gold and half-moons and
ear-rings of gold that have come from this mysterious nation." This story is
independently documented in the book "Amazonas y El Maranon" by Fray Manuel
Rodriguez, published in 1684, according to Wilkins.

Many people seem to confuse Gran Paititi and El Dorado, though the legends
locate them thousands of miles apart. El Dorado is often believed to be in
the vicinity of the Orinoco River near the borders of Columbia, Venezuela and
Brazil. In early 1559, the Viceroy of Peru wanted to rid his country of
unemployed soldiers and troublesome Spanish adventurers, so he sent a party
of 370 Spaniards and thousands of Andean Indians on an expedition down the
Amazon in search of a legendary city of gold. This expedition was an utter
failure, during which the men mutinied, and a psychopathic soldier, Lope de
Aguirre, killed the leader Pedro de Ursua. Taking over the expedition, he
abandoned the search for "El Dorado," vowing to return and conquer Peru
itself. This wild and incredible adventure, during which the women warriors
known as Amazons were first reported, and the Amazon River was first
navigated, was made into a German movie called, Aguirre: The Wrath of God.

This disastrous expedition was the beginning of the confusion between El
Dorado and Paititi, the real city of gold. It searched in an area far removed
from where Paititi appears to be located, and this is why most adventurers
after "El Dorado" searched in the vicinity of Columbia and Venezuela instead
of Peru, where the legends actually originated.

One adventurer who searched for Paititi was Pedro Bohorques, a penniless
soldier who pretended to be a nobleman. In 1659, after serving in Chile,
Bohorques became a wanderer. Calling himself Don Pedro el Inca, he swore that
royal Inca blood flowed through his veins. Bohorques set himself up as
emperor of an Indian kingdom at the headwaters of the Huallaga River south of
Cuzco. He converted almost 10,000 Pelados Indians into his service, and
declared all Spaniards fair game. He also sent some of his followers on a
search for Paititi, hoping to find the treasure.

When these men did not come back with gold, Bohorques left his empire and
went to Lima. Unfortunately, the Spaniards had heard of his decree against
them, threw him in prison, and sentenced him to death. He pled for his life,
promising to reveal the location of the Kingdom of Gran Paititi if he was
released. The judges refused his offer, but many gold hunters visited him in
prison, begging him to share his secret with them. He refused, and went to
the gallows in 1667, much to the chagrin of the treasure hunters of Lima.

Actually, it is not likely that Bohorques knew the location of Paititi (since
his adventurers returned without gold), though he was in the correct area,
and may have learned the general location. Also, Paititi was probably still a
living city at this time, so it would have been difficult for Bohorques or
anyone else to enter.

Of course, the search for Gran Paititi still continues, and many explorers
feel that they are getting close. Today, many feel that Paititi is somewhere
in the Paucartambo area of Peru, east of Cuzco toward the Madre de Dios
River. This is the same area in which Fray Lucero indicated that Gran Paititi
could be found. Some expeditions, however, because they either found the city
or disturbed the Indians too much in their search, end up dead. Boston
anthropologist Gregory Deyermenjian and British photographer Michael Mirecki
mounted their own expedition into this area in 1984. Their goal was a jungle
mountain in eastern Peru called Apucatinti. I accompanied Deyermenjian.

According to many sources, the mountain on which Paititi is located is called
Apucatinti, though exactly which mountain is really Apucatinti is open for
debate. The word means "Lord of the Sun" in Quechua, and any mountain with
this name (there are several) is a good candidate for having Paititi on it.

As noted above, Paititi comes from the Quechua word "Paikikin" which means
"the same as the other" which has also been translated as "the same as
Cuzco." What could it mean, "The same as Cuzco?" Deyermenjian thinks that
this indicates Paititi is another stone city, similar in its construction to
that found at Cuzco and Sacsayhuaman; a megalithic city like Machu Picchu. On
the other hand, it may mean that Paititi is like Cuzco in the sense that it
is the abode of the Inca kings, as Cuzco once was. If Paititi was built from
scratch by the retreating Inca royal fringe, then the ruins are more likely
to be similar to those found at Espiritu Pampa: small and unimpressive. Machu
Picchu also has part of a tunnel that can be found off the trail on the
northern part of the city.

Historically, Gran Paititi was not reported as being located on top of a
mountain, but rather by a lake. If these older reports are correct, Paititi
may be further into the jungles to the east or south. Some researchers even
believe that it may still be a living city, where the Inca tradition is still
carried on. Many areas, particularly to the east, could have remained under
Inca control for quite some time after the Spanish conquest.

Then again, Apucatinti may well be the site of a long-dead Paititi.
Demoralized and cut off from their former empire, the surviving Incas could
have existed on top of this remote mountain in a self-sufficient city much
like Machu Picchu, until they died out. Deyermenjian backs this theory, and
thinks that the city effectively died about the year 1600, a mere 30 or 40
years after the Incas escaped to their refuge there.

In June of 1986, I accompanied Greg Deyermenjian and a party of Peruvians to
scale the Apucatinti in Mameria. It took one week by horseback to the edge of
the jungle, and a further two weeks of living with Machiguenga Indians in
effort to scale the peak. We discovered Inca buildings, ovens, tombs and coca
plantations, as well as the first-ever structures in the Madre de Dios
district of Peru, but the ascent to the top of the mountain was extremely
difficult. The mountain has no fresh water, and is covered in thick, almost
impenetrable jungle. We ascended the mountain for five days from the base,
with Machiguenga Indians leading the way. However, after running out of food
and water, we had to return to the Indian village.

In August of 1986, Deyermenjian returned to Mameria by himself, and made it
to the summit of Apucatinti with his Indian guides. To their disappointment,
neither Paititi nor any other structures were at the summit of the mountain.
It had been a false lead, but it had looked like a good prospect.
Deyermenjian continued to search for Paititi, focusing on a nearby area that
was even more remote than Mameria and Apucatinti. It urned my attentions to

A Tunnel in Eastern Bolivia

With several old friends from the World Explorers Club, including Carl Hart,
Steve Yenouskas, and Raul Fernandez, I journeyed to Peru and Bolivia to
discover what we could of the tunnels in South America. After a week in Peru,
we set off one day from Cuzco for Tiahuanaco and then to eastern Bolivia to
the strange hilltop city of Samaipata. I had visited Samaipata by myself in
the mid-80s, and wrote about the strange "fort" in my book "Lost Cities &
Ancient Mysteries of South America".

List Members,

Here are the two books on the Chinese presence in the Americas 1421, and the Chinese influence on Europe. (They taught Leonardo da Vinci everything he knew!)

There is interesting reading on the left-hand side.

I'll be out of station until the 7th.

Happy New Year!


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List Members,

I forgot the url of the first one!

It is the best presentation of the Grand Canyon tunnel and cavernous auditorium with the giant Buddha stair that I have seen.


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List Members,

The following does have Chinese implications involving underground regions.

I found this third paragraph on the first page of Chapter Eight of the Childress book Lost Cities of North and Central America, on the pyramid at Cholula, Mexico.

“The gigantic Pyramid could be entered through a small opening in the East side. Inside were miles of tunnels in a bewildering maze. Murals and frescoes can be found throughout the strange tunnel system. According to Humbolt, the pyramid had been topped with a jade image of Quetzalcoatl. Today, a Catholic Church can be found at the summit”

This is amazing, it’s incredible. Think of all the tribulations and failures that we go through in Egypt in order to learn what lies below the pyramids.

But in northern Mexico is found the highest or second highest pyramid on the planet. And a full 500 years ago the Spanish conqruistadors and the Catholic Church all went below, poked around, and came up talking freely about what they had seen because there was no Illuminati or NWO censureship at that time. “... miles of tunnels...”

And the Jade image? In his book 1421, Gavin Menzies has substantiated very well that all those jade carvings in Mexico are made from Chinese jade, and not the inferior Columbia’s jade.

The sea route from China to the Pacific coast of the Americas is easy to ply; the current goes in a circle from China to the Aleutians to Canada to the U S to Mexico and Central America and back over to southern China.

Who inhabits the caverns below Cholula Mexico ? Who carved the jade statue at top?

The Chinese have had interests in the Americas for millennia and I fear their intentions towards western civilization.


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List Members,

So the Cholula Pyramid “had been topped with a jade image of Quetzalcoatl”. And I memtioned that the jade carvings in Mexico were of Chinese origin. Allow me to reinforce that comment.

In Chapter Eight still, of List Cities of North & Central America, we find David Hatcher Childress was walking through the Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City, the Olmec Room, and he commented as follows: “There were jade ink wellls, jade men with helmets, ceermaic whistle and pan flutes, jade jaguar masks and ceramic wheeled toys. There were some jade figures, one with a tattooed face, reminding me of similar tattooed faces from Japan, China and Polynesia.”

“There were many jade figurines, many with quite an oriental appearance and slanted eyes. ... one exhibit was about sixteen jade men about eight inches high. ... Strange inscriptions, more like ancient Chinese writing, were carved into the small stellae.”

People, have no doubt about it, Oriental influence, and specifically Chinese, was all over ancient Mexico.

A tour guide at Chicen Itza in the Yucatán Penninsula told me that practically every pyramid (the pyramids were all temples), was built over sink wells connected to underground waterways, or dry tunnel systems.

If the pyramidal architecture was so oriental and Chinese, the the Chinese must have been involved with the cavern worlds below. And who said they ever left? What Spanish exlplorers ever said that they followed a secret tunnel system 25 miles down, found the Aztecs, Incas, Chinese or whoever; and then flushed them out and took their treasure. None ever even tried such a thing, not in ernest.



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Regarding the Apache-Tartar connection (PDF of book you referenced, History of Arizona (Vol 7, pg 12) by Thomas Edwin Farish (books by him at, this is remarkable and makes sense. It appears that the craptastic communist front "RationalWiki" is attacking that here, no doubt due to their leftist agenda as can be seen near the end of the entry. The genetic connection is interesting.

The part about the "sacred ground where the Sioux carried out their ceremonies" and "cave opening" of Custer’s Last Stand at the Little Big Horn River is remarkable AND fascinating. Can you pinpoint this sacred ground mentioned on a map such as the following or are you aware of the precise location of this?:

After looking at Google Earth, it appears that that map is a little on the small side for calculating 5 miles out... So I found it in Google Earth I circumscribed a 5.5 mile circle from roughly the center of the "Indian Encampment in 1876" to see what we might see:

Here is another view of the area with a 5 mile circumscription from Google Earth along with the compass and tilt being reset along with the sun giving some shading to the topography:

I find this extremely interesting and would very much like to dig into these details further with regards to this sacred area + cave.

The repeated pattern is remarkable. I believe we should create a list and then map out these reservation and sacred land areas.

Hmm, hmm, hmmm. Chinese, Chinese, Chinese... Interesting and the genetic patterns are interesting. We need to pull up some genetic mappings, but I fear that most genetic maps are swayed by leftist and agenda-driven think tanks. I fear we will need to generate our own maps.

The Chinese-Reptilian(-Communist) connection grows stronger and stronger.


Thanks for the attention.

About Custer’s Last Stand... I got the piece by piece, movement by movement from the internet, much more than I related.

But I did not find ANY mention of the canyon or the cave opening online. I found that info in an obscure place, a place that isn’t worth censuring and that would’ve pode a threat.

I got it from a series of books that teach English as a second language

and that comes with a CD. I imagine that we might find the details of the campaign in an old encyclopedia or in Congressional records because there was testimony before Congress about how Custer wound up in that situation in the first place.

But the canyon was no more than a two day walk, maximum, from the battlefield because, by the time the main body arrived at the battlefield, the foot soldiers had disappeared from the open and clear surface. So they had already walked back. But it might have just the better part of one day.

Your second map shows a long canyon that starts to the right of the camp, so that has to be it; that is the only canyon around.

And the beginning of the canyon, on the side where the camp is situated, is the deep part, from what I see, so it is the most likely entrance point to a cave that goes down deep.

I remember reading that the canyon is off limits.


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Fascinating. Can you share the book name and such to see if I can dig it up? I'd love to get my hands on that book - or at least the section of the book that contains this info. If you could perhaps share the book name + some scans of the pages that contain this, that would be fantastic.

This kind of information is remarkable and truly golden with so much opportunity. I fear this is what we're losing with not only digitization of everything, but the discounting of material that's older than a few years or a couple decades old.


Here is another comment by David Hatcher Childress in his book Lost Cities of North & Central America, Page 132. Speaking of a City in Guatemala, he says:

"Eight miles South of Caracol are the vast Chiquibul Caves, the longest cave system in Central America with the largest cave room in the western hemisphere and the fourth largest cave room in the world. Only a lucky few have ever entered these remote and virtually inaccessible caves. Were these caves part of the reason the Caracol was built where it is, even without running water?"

"Considering that the Maya often built their pyramids and other structures directly over such caves, it seems highly likely that Caracol is connected via a tunnel system, partly natural and partly artificial, to the Chiquibul Caves."

Childress dedicates quite a few chapters to the Mayans and olmecs in southern Mexico and Central America, and it seems that all of their towns have a pyramid built on top of a cave system or an underground river.

Their underground connection seems to be intimate, they seem to be knowledgeable of the beings that live below. From the many pictures in the book I can see that these beings are hybrids of some sort, similar to the Egyptian depictions of humans with animal heads and such.

And there are faces depicted with rather long, rectangular beards similar to the Egyptian beards seen on the statues, and Chinese beards. The facial features are typically asiatic; again, there is some kind of Asiatic and/or Chinese connection. And the Asians worshipped reptiles such as dragons, and the Mayans did, too; they really did!!! The Asians and the Mayans worshipped the same deity, in fact. Rahu-the-serpent of the Hindus, the one who brings about the eclipses; and Kulkukclan who has the same description and role.

Never lose sight of the underground manipulation of the surface world. The maniulation is largely reptile, and China is on the move!


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List Members,

I would like to continue along these lines of a connection between Mayan pyramid sites, and the townships that they occupy, and the tunnel systems beneath and the issue of cavern worlds occupied by demons.

I am going to present a few things again from the David Hatcher Childress book Lost Cities of North & Central America. I am going to reproduce a few selections from Pages 118 – 120. If it hasn’t downed on you yet, this is a book that you want to order. It is chock full of shocking information.


“We walked on through the vast, overgrown city [City of dos Pilas, Guatemala - Dean]. We skirted along a flat-topped pyramid with several large steles about halfway up the northern side. One stele was over 15 feet long with a warrior standing upon a vanquished enemy. Curiously, a dwarf stands next to him . [significance comin’ up!]

Pedro, the owner of the hotel, knew of our interest in the mysteries of the Petén. ‘You should go to Topoxté, near to Nakum’, he said to us … .

‘Where is Nakum?’ asked Albert.

‘Nakum is near Takal, a bit to the East’, said Pedro.

‘And why should we go there?’ I asked.

‘Well’ he said, ‘It’s a very strange miniature city with miniature temples, buildings, pyramids, staircases and everything. But everything is small, miniaturized.’

The American author and researcher Loren Coleman has an entire chapter about the little people of the Maya, called the Alux, in his book Curious Encounters. Says Coleman ‘There are tales and rumors of some Mayan temples where there exist bas-reliefs of pairs of naked little men who are shown smaller than both the truly large priests and the five-foot tall Mayan Indian peasants represented in the carvings. The Mayas of today are still short people by western standards, but these little people of the ancient petroglyphs were not Mayas and not children. They were full-grown people, shown amongst the legs of warriors and the like, carrying on adult activities. They were the Alux, a race of Pygmies’.

Continues Coleman: ‘Travel writers Bill Mack and others have pointed out that at almost every Mayan archaeological site, one startling feature stands out. In front of the main temple there are usually either singly or in clusters … tiny houses with doorways less than three feet high. Archaeologists write them off as votary shrines, but present-day Mayas say they were the homes of the favored Alux.’

… Coleman then describes an interesting encounter with an Alux: ‘From 1977, we have the sterling report of a young Mayan named Xuc (pronounced as Chuck – Coleman). Xuc was, at the time, the caretaker of the archaeological site of Mayapan, an ancient, walled Mayan city that became the capital after the fall of Chichén Itzá. Bill Mack, in his excellent article Mexico’s Little People, in the August 1984 issue of Fate, tells of Xuc’s meeting with an Alux’:

“Mayapan is closed to visitors after five P.M. and, therefore, … Xuc was puzzled late one night in 1977 to hear the sound of a machete chopping wood. Unlocking the entry gate, he started in the direction of the sound. As he rounded the corner of the dilapidated Temple of the Birds, a small clay pellet whizzed perilously close to his head. He ducked behind a pile of fallen masonry and heard pellet after pellet strike the ancient stones around him.”

“During a pause in this strange barrage, Xuc raised his head and peered out cautiously. What he saw shook him to the very foundations of of his traditional Indian stoicism. Outlined in the wavering Moonlight was a tiny man. His head was disproportionately large, his beard was jet black and he was clad in a white hupile , a Mayan dress-like garment or tunic. Slung over his shoulder was a standard-sized machete, almost as long as the man was tall.”

“What Xuc saw was living proof - for him, at least - that that the Alux exist”.

End of Quote from Childress book

List members … some take-aways that we have from the above is that these wee folk are as tall as a machete is long, that they commonly placed their towns next to the towns of the Maya in Guatemala but that they at least exist in the Yucatan where Chichén Itzá exists, and that they are depicted on the petroglyphs and bas-reliefs on the walls and steles of the Mayan cities. And this last point is “the” point.

I have been poking through the Central America-Guatemala-Yucatan section of the above-mentioned Childress book, and there are a lot of pics of the statues, statuettes, bas reliefs, petroglyphs, et cetera, that he saw in and around the Mayan cities and in front of the pyramids. The beings depicted are rather weird and bizarre in their characteristics, proportions and facial features. And there are quite a few pics of bizarre wee folk. To tell the truth, they are repugnant and shocking.

And the Alux are depicted among them, and the Alux had their cities right next to the Mayan cities which were right next to tunnel entrances and such; right above cavern worlds below. And the Mayans had a relationship with them, they were neighbors! All scriptures of the world tell us that demons live in the depths below. The Devil is depicted as an evil spirit, an evil entity that assumes the shape of a serpent (just ask Adam and Eve) and who tricks human beings on the surface and who is parasitic towards them. And the Mayans worshipped the serpent in the pyramid temples, or I should say ”on” their pyramid temples because the altar room was at the top and the people congregated below, in front of the pyramid.

So we can conclude that, if the Alux are depicted in the Mayan artwork and sculptures, and that they truly do exist, and the Mayans had dealings with them … then the other beings depicted with out-of-proportion faces and bodies, and bizarre faces and everything, then they must exist too. How could it be that only the Alux of all the sculptures exist, and the other don’t exist? Why not? Why wouldn’t the other ones truly exist, too?

People, buy some of these David Hatcher Childress books that I speak about, they are treasures of information that people culled and preserved by dedicating years of their lives to preserving the truth. You need to inform yourselves well and keep hard copies because, one day, digital information might just suddenly evaporate.

Enough for now.


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