Mike,
I'll make this my last off topic post for the sake of others on the list,
but I should explain this faith/works debate that exists between the LDS and
many other Christians.
The fact that during the Reformation there was a "hotly contested debate"
about whether a person is justified by his faith or by his works should give
any non-LDS Christian MAJOR cause for concern, and it also proves my point.
Back then they knew only heaven vs hell. Black and white. You were saved or
not saved. A notably shortsighted, uninformed, dark-ages view of the
afterlife--but a doctrine that the church authorities of the time no doubt
wanted in place. The afterlife is far more complex that this. Their belief
is understandable, though, because that's what they were taught (or
frightened into believing). Did they know the nature of God? Did they know
the true goal? No.
The LDS know that God's plan is to "bring to pass the immortality and
eternal life of man." The first of these is free and second is earned. This
concept of "salvation" and "grace of God" is simply immortality, and that is
what's free. Christ conquered death and so shall we. [It will surprise many
to know that you actually don't even need faith to get this free gift if
immortality. Immortality is free because we already earned it, and we will
come to remember this when our memories of pre-earth life are restored, in
due time. I'm confident that when this memory is restored, that's when we'll
have some "weeping and wailing" going on.]
Back in the Reformation, nobody understood "eternal life." To grow our faith
we must learn to love God and the Lord. True faith begets honest, genuine
works. All of us require faith because God is not here looking over our
shoulder in plain sight. That is by design. If you believe in God, you have
a measure of faith. But if a person doesn't know what eternal life is, what
his or her goal is and how to attain it, he struggles through life, not
quite sure what to do, forming his own beliefs--whatever they may be--that
make him comfortable. He may claim faith, but his faith is inert. You have
to grow it.
Eternal life, however, is based on faith, but must be earned. The LDS
definition of eternal life is to obtain the kind of life that God leads. It
is godliness. No other Christian religion understands or teaches this
doctrine. In fact, they consider it blasphemy. This doctrine was willfully
removed from Christ's teachings during his ministry, because the powerful
elite and church officials couldn't have that kind of news empowering the
people. However, I'm willing to bet that the more accurate gospel of Thomas
would contain this information. Some of it did slip passed the careless
scribes, such as "be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is
perfect," which Christ taught.
So when Joseph Smith said we must act like God, this concept encompasses the
characteristics and attributes of God: love, selflessness, charity, and all
these behaviors that will enhance us spiritually. Joseph Smith was able to
make this statement because he understood something that no one else on
earth understood: the nature of God.
These rules I speak of do not limit us; they set us free; they train us
spiritually; they enable us to make full use of the atonement of Jesus
Christ. We know the goal, the sacrifice it takes to get there. You have to
know God and his Son, and genuinely want to strive to be like them. It all
starts with the growing of your faith, and the good works just come
naturally. "Faith without works is dead." It is NOT about going around doing
good deeds and chalking each one up in the "Win" column.
And if you want to go through life thinking Christ would ever endorse
drinking or smoking, you're a fool. How can the Lord send the Comforter, the
Holy Ghost, to a person, if that person is catching a buzz off of Miller
Genuine Draft, or on a nicotine high?
Give me a break!
Blake
···
-----Original Message-----
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, May 09, 2001 9:59 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: [allplanets-hollow] Re: Help!
--- In allplanets-hollow@y..., "Frei, Blake" <blake_frei@j...> wrote:
"If we want to go to that place where God is, we must act like
God."
This is really going OT for this list, and I apologize in advance.
Here is the non-LDS Christian perspective on this same topic.
From
http://www.grmi.org/Richard_Riss/sermons/0008.html
During the time of the Reformation, one issue that was hotly
contested was whether a person is justified by faith or by works.
The Catholics emphasized James 2:24, which states that "a
man is justified by works, and not by faith alone," while the
Protestants responded with Galatians 2:16 and Romans 3:28,
according to which "a man is not justified by the works of the
Law but through faith."
Which is it? Are we justified by faith, as Paul says, or by
works, as James says? James was worried about people who
accepted Christian doctrine as true but who did not live
accordingly. He wrote that "even the demons believe and
shudder." Paul, on the other hand, was worried about those who
thought that if they followed the law, they would automatically
be acceptable to God. Of course, right standing before God
results neither from believing the right doctrines nor from going
through the right motions.
It's fine to perform good works, but that will not earn a
person right standing before God, since the Lord is not
interested merely in whether we engage in good deeds. He
wants to know why we are performing those deeds. Is it in order
to look good? Is it so that other people will think highly of us?
Is it in order to escape punishment? Do we engage in them so
that others will be indebted to us and we will therefore have a
measure of control over them?
------
More at the URL above. This URL also has some similar yet
worthwhile points:
http://www.calvaryem.org/dow/JUSTIFY.HTM
------
I believe that Paul said something to the effect of "All things in
moderation." Jesus "did away" with the dietary laws of the Old
Testament, and said essentially "Eat what you will, as long as
you do it with thanksgiving (to God)," which is the basis for the
Christian habit of "saying grace" or praying over a meal. In other
words, consecrate the food and drink in this way, and it will truly
by used to the nourishment of the body.
Jesus also said "You hypocrites. You criticized John the Baptist
when ate locusts and drank water from the wild, and you criticize
the son of man when he comes eating and drinking." "Drinking"
refers to alcoholic wine, not "grapejuice," as wine was made,
stored, and utilized daily in the middle east of the time, and
refrigeration was not an option to halt fermentation. The Jews
would not have halted fermentation anyway, wine was part of
their diet and culture, and of course Christ's first miracle was to
create a batch of "the good stuff" from water, for a wedding and at
his mother's request. Due to his habit of dining with the
common man, Christ was accused of being a drunkard and a
glutton (check the New Testament). He was neither, but this
was the source of his condemnation of his critics, as
paraphrased above. And of course, the Apostle Paul said "Take
a little wine daily, as it is good for the body."
So there you have the other side of the coin. "Works" and "rules"
don't guarantee anyone entrance to heaven, since all are
hopelessly imperfect. Only faith and acceptance of a "payment"
for our inadequacies (transgressions, sins, or "rule-breaking"),
in the form of the perfect sacrifice of the God-Man Christ, will do
the trick. Eating rules, drinking rules, etc. are meaningless
according to Christ, who enjoyed wine himself. What matters is
the inner intent and acceptance of Christ as Lord. That's the
general Protestant interpretation, as pretty clearly defined in
Scripture anyway.
A point which is to be noted is that, as a follower of Christ with
the Holy Spirit indwelling, one does not engage in drunkeness,
various addictions, etc., because it is not "God-like," as Blake
said. The overpowering urges and desires to do such things are
negated or removed by genuine faith.
--Mike
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