This theory certainly explains the 272 flood myths
found globally/Atlantis-type underwater structures,
Egyptian hieroglyphs in Ohio, nicotine in Egyptian
mummies,... as well as the flash freezing of mammoths,
etc. It does simplify things a bit.
Would these now-emptied water pockets be the systems
of caverns and rivers often described?
Curious,
Cheri
Cheri,
This theory has been around in one form or another for well over
a century. It is used to explain the phrase in Genesis which is
translated "the fountains of the deep." These "fountains,"
probably huge aquifers, burst forth simultaneously with a deluge
of falling water from above (a "canopy" of dense water vapor that
was suddenly and violently disturbed, perhaps by an
astronomical event such as those described by Velikovsky, or
the near passage of a large comet or planet).
Evidence for this ancient "bursting forth" of waters does exist,
and is often used by Creationists to try and promote the idea of
an Earth which is only 6000 or so years old (this is turn is based
on sheer ignorance and intentional ignoring of both scientific
and translation-error facts). Something catastrophic and global
did occur, but it looks like the last great cataclysm was
approximately 12,000 or so years ago. A "worldwide" aquifer
which was violently disturbed (perhaps by a sudden change in
pressure, due to the tidal or gravitational forces of a passing
planetary body) and burst forth, might provide A VERY REAL AND
LOGICAL EXPLANATION for the worldwide "anomalous" region
called the Mohorovicic Layer, or Moho, which may very well be a
layer of vast, honeycombed caverns.
--Mike
p.s., I would like to see the program, but I don't get PAX.
Mike: This was also mentioned on one of my video tapes on the Ark a few
years back. It was narrated by Darin McGavin. They taked about the waters
gushing up from underwater reservoirs and the canapy that surrounded the
earth. This was also mentioned on one on the H. E. audion tapes that I have
by Frank Stranges. I think they also mentioned thecanopy letting giants
grow taller in the film (The Myth and Mystery of Giants.) From: Ralph
The fall of the atmospheric canopy, and the resultant increase in
solar and cosmic radiation on Earth (stunting growth and
decreasing lifespans while causing disease), were the causes
that the non-human races and perhaps some partially human
ones had to take refuge inside the Earth. They lacked the level
of tolerance for the radiation that we humans had, and to some
extent, still have. "They" still lack this tolerance. The Bible,
Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha make reference to this, as do
dozens of other accounts from other traditions and cultures.
This is mentioned in detail in my Foreword to CCCC.
The fall of the atmospheric canopy, and the resultant increase in
solar and cosmic radiation on Earth (stunting growth and
decreasing lifespans while causing disease), were the causes
that the non-human races and perhaps some partially human
ones had to take refuge inside the Earth. They lacked the level
of tolerance for the radiation that we humans had, and to some
extent, still have. "They" still lack this tolerance. The Bible,
Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha make reference to this, as do
dozens of other accounts from other traditions and cultures.
This is mentioned in detail in my Foreword to CCCC.
Thanks,
--Mike
(From Dick Fojut) Mike...
Excuse my extensive ignorance about the Bible, Apocrypha (only parts of both I've read in the past) and Pseudepigrapha (I've never read), concerning the FALL OF THE GREAT WATER CANOPY that once existed. In brief (if you can), what did each relate? Curious.
Alse, are you familiar with the OAHSPE Bible by Ballou? (Think I have author's name right).
Published in the 1800s, it purported to give the simultaneous history of the earth below and the heavens above. Also a complete "scientific" (in the eyes of the author) cosmology of the ENTIRE visible and invisible universe over all time throughout all space
The author ALSO described a great canopy of water held aloft that finally fell, drowning nearly everything, as I recall. (Haven't opened the book again for over 50 years).
Oddly, somewhat like Van Flandrin"s current notions, the author contended Earth's GRAVITY is a PUSH from "outside," not a PULL from the earth.
Ballou claimed the entire book was dictated to him by a celestial being (or beings). To assist him, he was given the plan for the FIRST typewriter, which he built and used to TYPE the dictation. Supposedly, his typewriter is in some museum somewhere, recognized as the FIRST typewriter in America. How valid that is I do not know.
(By the way, how did people keep from drowning in caverns under the surface if the surface was flooded? How did they keep the water from pouring in the cavern entrances or tunnels after them? A lot of good cork plugs?)
There is probably no connection with the water canopy you're discussing (or the Oahspe Bible), as it seems to have been in existence AFTER earth was already populated, but Churchward speculated about the EARLY condition of the forming earth BEFORE the waters "fell" (and temporarily covered the entire surface of earth).
Some time AFTER the granite and secondary Gneiss rocks had solidified to semi-molten to form earth's outer crust, he described the nebula's elemental gases that would compose the waters and atmosphere, later cooling and combining into compounds.
At first there was only moisture, then some droplets, those that touched the scorching rock surface, immediately evaporated and headed back upward (by this time earth's outside centrifugal force had commenced, throwing lighter elements outward and upward).
The atmospheric envelope was a hot fog, a misty "canopy" (and dark) from the surface to the edge of the forming atmosphere. In this sense, for some time, THE WATERS WERE HELD ALOFT.
But obviously, there was yet NO life on earth, nor could there be until the distant "future" when the earth's surface - and waters - lowered in temperature below 212 degrees.
When the surface rocks became cool enough, the waters finally "fell" or settled as waters, but in a BOILING state for some time. All a very logical sequence, IF Churchward speculated correctly.
Some questions I have about OAHSPE, the Bible and the other books if they all describe a CANOPY of water held aloft, (LONG AFTER the early earth canopy or covering mist described by Churchward), is WHY and HOW (scientifically) were such oceans of water held aloft so late in earth's development?
Was the WHY and HOW explained in what you've read? Sufficient for you to find the WHY and HOW persuasive to you?
This is such a good point, about the presence of giants prior to the
falling of the canopy. The Puranic literature presents historical
narrations from before the fall of the canopy, from before the onset
of the Kali Yuga. The Puranas describe tall human beings, Arjuna was
said to be 12 feet tall. The humans described in the Puranas had a
long duration of life, as much as 1,000 years, and fabulous memories.
It is the unrefined rays of the sun which stunts our growth, cuts our
duration of life, etc. there is one text in the Bhagavat purana which
tells that, in the Kali Yuga, the human being is but short-lived,
short in stature, less intelligent, lazy, and most of all
unfortunate. ( After all, what kind of karma is the present surface
human supposed to generate? ) Puranic descriptions tell that,
although clouds were ever-present, it did not rain except at night.
Keep these descriptions in mind, then think about the descriptions of
Olaf of the inner Earth inhabitants. The same thing, the duration of
life, memories, height, ect. And Olaf said that there language was at
least similar to Sanskrit, and that they worshipped in temples
through song. He said that they were Caucasian, too, just like in
Northern Europe.
So there you have it. That original Indo-European culture once
stretched from within the hollow Earth to the Arctic rim, down
through Europe, across Persia and the Middle East, into Northern
India, across to Bengal and up to Burma.
But the point is that, in the hollow Earth, they are protected from
the unrefined rays. Photons and other particles from the sun break up
in our atmosphere and upon hitting the crust, form themselves into
softer particles- unperceived by humans- and reach frequncies which
allow them to pass through the shell and reach the hollow Earth
Interesting, similar accounts exist in many cultures, from
Sumerian to Native American (so obviously, despite what
Churchward may have postulated, there must have been human
life on Earth and witnesses at the time of the fall of the firmament
or canopy).
In Genesis, we are told:
6 ¶ And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the
waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which
were under the firmament from the waters which were above the
firmament: and it was so.
8 And God called the firmament Heaven. 2 Pet. 3.5 And the
evening and the morning were the second day.
9 ¶ And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered
together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was
so.
10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together
of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
So here we clearly have a "firmament" composed of water, and
the "waters were divided from the waters," i.e., the waters of the
Earth's surface were divided from the waters of the firmament.
We are also told in Genesis that even before humanity existed,
the world was in a "greenhouse" -like state; everything was
watered by a "mist," particularly plant life, and the atmosphere
was very humid but apparently not too hot. Rain was not a
common occurrence, as water was "bound up" in the firmament,
or else in the waters of the Earth, with a moist atmosphere
between them:
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every
herb of the field before it grew: for the LORD God had not caused
it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the
ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole
face of the ground.
At the time of the deluge, two things apparently occurred more or
less simultaneously: the "firmament" (actually a shell or
concentric sphere of water) fell, possibly starting in a gradual,
raining fashion which became a downpour (the flood of "forty
days and forty nights"), and the "fountains of the deep," vast
aquifers beneath the Earth's surface, burst forth:
7:11
In the six hundredth year of the life of Noah, in the second month,
in the seventeenth day of the month, in this day have been
broken up all fountains of the great deep, and the net-work of the
heavens hath been opened,
7:12
and the shower is on the earth forty days and forty nights.
7:17
And the deluge is forty days on the earth, and the waters multiply,
and lift up the ark, and it is raised up from off the earth;
7:18
and the waters are mighty, and multiply exceedingly upon the
earth; and the ark goeth on the face of the waters.
7:19
And the waters have been very very mighty on the earth, and
covered are all the high mountains which are under the whole
heavens;
7:20
fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the
mountains are covered;
The subterranean nature of the "fountains of the deep" is made
clear in Proverbs. The description includes the waters of the
atmosphere, oceans, and the underground:
8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a
compass upon the face of the deep:
8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he
strengthened the fountains of the deep:
8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should
not pass his commandment: when he appointed the
foundations of the earth:
Following is an excerpt from my Foreword to CCCC:
----
Another interesting parallel is the tradition that the Nephilim and
their partially-human offspring and descendants are imprisoned
beneath the Earth, kept captive there, perhaps, by a changed
surface-world environment and a low tolerance for the ultraviolet
radiation in sunlight. Only those with more of the "stolen" human
genetic material can venture forth for any length of time, which
may in fact explain the seemingly desperate and unrelenting
need for interbreeding, whether accomplished by trickery,
seduction, or coercion. The same can be said for the "wee folk"
of varying descriptions and traditions, as well as for vampires,
evil spirits of various types, and a number of so-called
"extraterrestrials" who have surprisingly little tolerance, for a
"space-faring" race, for bright daylight conditions, even down to
the dark protective lenses over their bulbous eyes. Great lengths
seem to be gone to, in order to convince humanity that "they," the
"others," come from somewhere else, when in fact their origin
may be much nearer at hand than we realize. As for most
humanoid creatures of "supernatural," paranormal, or cryptid
aspect, sightings tend to be take place more often at night, or at
twilight, dusk, or early morning, and in deep, dark locales such
as heavy forests, misty valleys, and so forth.
In his highly-confabulated accounts of subterranean dwellers
and their predations upon the surface world, the pulp writer
Richard Shaver insisted that such beings had taken refuge
beneath the Earth's surface as a result of a change in the sun, or
in its effect upon the genetic structure of living tissue. We now
know that prolonged exposure to direct sunlight and other types
of radiation do in fact degrade our cells, and in fact may be the
primary cause of aging.
The Sumerian and Hebrew accounts of a flood seem to indicate
that the atmosphere surrounding the Earth was once very
different than at present, with an ever-present "canopy" or
"firmament" which may have kept the majority of such radiation
away from life on the planet. In fact, the Book of Genesis
indicates that the "first rainbow" occurred after the downpour of
the deluge (perhaps when the cloud canopy fell, due to some
form of catastrophism), when the sun shone brightly upon the
Earth. If this occurred upon a day which was, in actuality, the first
day in millions of years without a hazy shroud of water vapor or
even suspended ice crystals filling the upper atmosphere, then
this may not be as much of a myth as many might wish to
believe. A rainbow would have been something new, and might
have heralded the rise of a hardier species--homo sapiens--to a
place of dominance in the surface world environment, and the
retreat of older races or species beneath a protective ground.
According to the records of Sumerian Kings and Biblical
Patriarchs, the result of this exposure to increased cosmic and
solar radiation had an effect on humanity as well, with life-spans
dwindling, becoming shorter and shorter as years and centuries
passed and our cells became less and less resistant to the
bombardment from above.
Copyright 2000 by Wm. Michael Mott, of course!
---------
(Think I
I've read excerpts from OAHSPE, but not the book itself. I know
that it is somewhat imitative of Hebrew esoteric traditions, such
as those presented in the Quabbala, and also that Ray Palmer
(major proponent of "The Shaver Mystery") was a believer in its
worthiness. I find that, given many of the statements and
concepts it presents as factual, I have to take it largely as a work
of a deceptive nature.
First, this would depend on the nature of the people or beings in
question; then on the different possible depths and levels or
nature of the caverns or cavern-systems; and thirdly, according to
the book of Jubilees, the Nephilim and Nephilim-hybrids were
not "imprisoned" beneath the ground until AFTER the deluge.
The deluge was used, in fact, to eradicate most of the hybrid
life-forms (cannibalistic giants and others) from the surface of
the Earth.
(and
In this
Churchward was operating here under the ASSUMPTION that
the atmospheric make-up of the Earth has more or less always
been similar to that which we know in modern times.
Churchward's theory about the initial creation of the "canopy"
could very well be accurate, but this canopy may have been in
place until VERY recently, geologically speaking, when the
world-wide deluge which is described as having taking place in
human pre-history, took place. From this cataclysmic event, we
get not only our various flood myths, but also the myths and
memories of sunken, destroyed continents, kingdoms, and so
on.
This may have been dependent on both the quantity of waters
and their relative distance above the Earth. Could the tidal pull of
the moon have "balanced" such a configuration, helping to hold it
aloft? Who knows? But I don't see why not. Apparently there
was a major celestial disturbance which upset this balance and
weakened such a pull. Don't forget, many of the larger planets
have "liquid atmospheres," yet we are told that they also may or
do have a "rocky core" (Jupiter is described in this way). Do we
really know what conditions are like completely, between the
upper atmosphere of Jupiter and the smaller rocky planet at it's
center? Nor does this negate the possibility of a hollow planet
there (in fact I would say that it makes the case for a hollow
Jupiter a strong one, for to be hollow, it has to be solid).
Sufficient
Yes, I believe so. The above material is only a small part of all
the available evidence.
(From Dick ) Mike... Come on now! Everything you described above from the Bible was described by Churchward... only he took the SAME descriptions from the Naacal tablets he translated with his Rishi mentor in India. I'll be happy to email all the passages.The tablets (purportedly) dated long before the Bible version was written. But essentially they tell the SAME story as 6-10 AFTER the earth's beginning rocky crust had already formed! You left out 1-5. What you state in your following paragraphs seem more YOUR interpretations of selected passages.
For a time earlier on, rain may not have been a "common occurrence." If Churchward was right for millions of years earth appeared as an ENDLESS swamp. Water, slush and mud with very little above water level. There were no rivers or streams OR MOUNTAINS. All land, according to him (except for already existing deep earlier blown out ocean holes was a little below or a little above water level, across the globe.
Earthquakes and subsequent volcanic blowouts of near surface gas chambers, with the flaming gases reaching skyward may well have encouraged those infrequent rains. But the misty moisture, heat and dense humidity, covering everything, saturating the plants and atmosphere near the surface must have seemed like a giant steam bath. For a long time not conducive to MAN. About your comment below. Of course there was no man, yet, to till the "ground." - Dick
(From Dick) Mike, aren't you mixing stories in the above? The creation preceded the forty days and forty nights as I recall. The 40 days and 40 nights during the DELUGE of Noah.. which may well have been one of many soakings and floods seen on this earth. Did an ocean sized canopy of water fall EVERY time some place on the earth experienced a catastrophic flood, with accompanying heavy, sustained rains? That would seem to indicate make multiple canopies floating above, waiting their turns. Why is anything left above water? I'm just kidding of course. But I had no idea you were so convinced of every word in the Old Testament! I'm NOT. - Dick
(From Dick) I personally don't believe the six hundredth year stuff above. But no matter... Speculation: If volcanic gases below a nearby body of water raise the submerged roof of a great gas chamber, the waters above will spill over surrounding land (if most of earth before 15,000 years back was near sea level. That's a catastrophic tidal wave. A flood. Churchward claims they happened many times, wiping out civilized man many times. That's water coming from "the fountains of the deep."
Associated earthquakes and volcanos also bursting off, with sulphurous fumes reaching the skies could trigger heavy rains. - Dick
But I'm not in agreement about some of your CONCLUSIONS in the above excerpts. And I don't give much credence to Sitchin's interpretations. He "invents," to state it kindly. Makes even his accurate stuff uncertain. I frankly think many of your interpretations above are just that, interpretations, based on your already arrived at beliefs. Beautifully expressed. Damned good reading, but not necessarily true, though maybe "true" according to the "gospel." - Dick
---------------------
(From Dick) I agree.
"The deluge was used, in fact...etc." Old Sitchin's deluge was to get rid of all those upstart humans!
"Cannibalistic giants and others" Great fantasy stuff, Mike. Sorry, I just can't swallow such statements. As I wrote above, and old Churchward provided excellent evidence for, those awful dinosaur beasts and similar creatures finally (gradually) ceased when temperatures dropped below the TEMPERATURE range their species needed to procreate and hatch eggs. They died out MUCH later in the tropical areas that stayed warmer. They didn't need a great flood (or a real magnetic cataclysmic wave over the north pole) or meteors to end their time. They died out as their eggs failed to hatch. - Dick
(From Dick) Mike, you're completely mistaken with your above statement. You didn't get it from him or me. He said it was totally different. It's our modern geology idiots who ASSUME the atmosphere and land was SIMILAR millions of years back.
Above, I wrote about the ENDLESS swamp condition of earth for countless millions of years. Super-tropical, verdant growth and trees. SWAMP animal life, SWAMP vegetation. And a carbon charged, stifling atmosphere, no human could breathe. And the swamps were rising and falling constantly as volcanic gases from below over-compressed the water level roofs of the multitudes of gas chambers below the swamps. When the chambers blew out or emptied indirectly though a volcanic eruption of a nearby connected chamber, the roofs and all above crashed to the bottom, was covered with foliage and sealed over with mud and clay. Enough foliage and small amount of clay, and that submerged roof with sealed over foliage, under the pressure of water, may have become a future COAL BED. That's how they came to be, Mike. Read Churchward. - Dick
(From Dick) I don't feel you have provided me "evidence," just a lot of scripture and your interpretations of same. I'm not scripture oriented, I guess. - Dick
(From Dick) YES! Quite a bit. I think he was a genius on some parts, not so smart on others. But LIKE Sitchin, he later spent a great deal of his writing trying to justify events in the Old Testament with his cosmological ideas. Sitchin did much the same after his first book, using his Sumerian, Nibiru notions to justify some of the SAME events in the Old Testament. They both couldn't be right. But both were (Velikovski) and is (Sitrchin) devout and proud Jews. Surely you must be aware of that.
(From Dick) Some. But not as many as I expected. Thanks for bothering to spend so much of your time. A friendly argument? - Dick
Dick, this is your right! But it really seems that you are making an
almost-identical argument, except that you are attempting to set
Churchward up as the ruling authority and savant behind any
and all related knowledge, interpretation, or revelation--on just
about any matter. I don't share this view, as I find that his
research is like anyone else's: Often he is on to something, but
just as often he is not. For instance his take on the "superiority"
and benevolence of the "Naacal" or "Naga" people is not borne
out by the folklore of other groups. He allegedly got his
information--and access (along with help interpreting, no
doubt)--from "tablets" of the Naacals. Of course they and their
"priests" would present themselves in the best possible light,
whether this gyves with other traditions or not.
I do find that many of his ideas about the structure of the Earth
have some merit, but there was a lot that Churchward, given the
amount of scientific and other information available during his
day, did NOT know, nor could not know and use to formulate
further theories. Therefore all of his work, postulations, and
theories, are severely DATED and OUT OF DATE, as there was
simply much he could not yet know and take into account!
I don't doubt this. Note that I said that there are parallels all over
the world, in many different traditions.
They may predate in terms of age, but "purportedly" is a very wise
choice of adjective.
Yes, my interpretation based on many other sources as well. I'm
not going to hunt down and transcribe everything for you,
however. You are free to do the research in different traditions,
folklore and myth-cycles, etc. Conversely, it seems like
everything you believe or even consider is often filtered through
Churchward-colored glasses, and you want everything to fit or
gyve with Churchward's views. But everything DOESN'T--some
things do, that's all.
I still say, look to the so-called "gas giants" for an idea of the
possibilities. Despite the term, much of their atmospheres are
liquid (in fact, from a physics point-of-view, our own oceans are
the "denser" portion of our atmosphere). Jupiter has much
greater gravity than the Earth, but the aqueous or liquid layers
beneath the gas canopy don't "fall." How do we know what the
"surface" of Jupiter really looks like, or if there is a region of less
density--like our own atmosphere--between the denser liquids
and gases of its outer layers, and the surface? Simple, we
DON'T know.
hot! Good grief, Mike!
But Dick, here you go again in ASSUMING the omniscience and
infallibility of Churchward! This is NOT logical. The point I made
was that such a canopy could have existed above the Earth from
a time of great antiquity, whether the surface of the Earth, FAR
BELOW, cooled or remained hot. The latter could be utterly
irrelevant, if the "firmament" were at a sufficiently high level,
much like mist/steam and condensation in a hot-house.
LUSH,
And with the
Dick, none of this in any way disputes or invalidates the other
accounts, including the Biblical one. From my perspective, they
are in fact mutually supportive. Of course, the Hebrew word
"Yom" would have been more accurately translated as "age" or
"epoch," as a good Hebrew linguist might tell you. This would
put the Biblical story of Creation into a very science-friendly, and
even evolutionary-sequence, perspective.
I take this to mean that the atmosphere was misty and humid,
perhaps semi-tropical.
The
No, Dick, there's no confusion. The Creation quotes
demonstrate the state of the Earth and its atmosphere from
antiquity; the Flood myth demonstrates a time when this
EARLIER condition changed drastically and suddenly with a
cataclysmic deluge. As for the oldest books (the Pentateuch) of
the Old Testament, I see them, along with other ancient
documents, as simplified versions and accounts of much more
complex truths.
Again, keep in mind the Purana material Dean posted, and my
stuff on life-spans dwindling AFTER THE FALL OF THE
PROTECTIVE CANOPY. Science now tells us that AGING IS
UNNATURAL, AND IS IN FACT A "DISEASE." The primary cause
of this "disease?" Solar/Cosmic Radiation!
I have no problem with cyclic catastrophism, and believe it has
happened many times. However, the "fountains" term denotes a
bursting forth, not a wave. The ancients tended to be very
specific in their descriptions, and you find Plato describing,
beyond doubt, the Ocean swallowing Atlantis,i.e., with "waves,"
just as you find the Biblical and older versions very specific about
different types of destruction. In the Sumerian and later
Babylonian cosmology, the "ABZU" or "APSU" was a VAST
UNDERWORLD FILLED WITH WATER. The Babylonians left no
doubt that it was a deep place upon which the surface world
"floated." This region was eventually rent asunder in a "war of the
gods" which took place there, in which TIAMAT, the
dragon-ruler/queen of the ABZU, was slain. After this, the "god"
Enki/EA, a scaled humanoid with an affinity for water, made his
dwelling there. ABOVE the ABZU was the KI.GAL, or inhabited
underworld, where non-human entities lived. This sounds
suspiciously as if there were once a vast underground ocean,
perhaps in the region we now call the Mohorovicic Discontinuity,
about twenty miles down. The catastrophe which the Torah
remembers as the Flood of Noah may have been symbolized by
the myth of the battle between Marduk and Tiamat, in the ABZU
or APSU. APSU was also the husband of Tiamat, a place and
concept personified, as was she.
The following concise information is from this site:
Apsu
"The Epic of Creation (Enuma Elish): Tablet I"
He is the underworld ocean, and the begetter of the skies and of
the earth. The father of Lahmu, Lahamu, Anshar and Kishar. He
could not quell the noise of them or their children. He colluded
with his vizier Mummu to silence the gods and allow Tiamat to
rest, after Tiamat rejected the idea. Ea found out about his plans,
cast a sleeping spell on him and killed him.
(Dalley pp. 232-235, 318)
Tiamat
"The Epic of Creation (Enuma Elish): Tablets I-III"
She is primeval Chaos, bearer of the skies and the earth, mother
of Lahmu, Lahamu, Anshar, and of Kishar. Traditionally
conceived of as aserpent or dragon of some sort, this idea does
not have any basis in the Enuma Elish itself. Within that work her
physical description includes, a tail, a thigh, "lower parts" (which
shake together), a belly, an udder, ribs, a neck, a head, a skull,
eyes, nostrils, a mouth, and lips. She has insides, a heart,
arteries, and blood. The clamor of the younger gods disturbed
her, but she continued to indulge them. When her husband Apsu
and his vizier Mummu suggested that they kill the younger gods,
she grew furious, calmed down and rejected the plan. Her
restless subservient gods goaded her into action after Apsu is
slain. They prepared to wage war against the other gods. As
Mother Hubur, the underworld river, who fashions all things, she
bore giant snakes with venom for blood, and cloaked dragons
with a godlike radiance yet with a terrible visage, for the war. She
rallied a horned serpent, a mushussu-dragon, a lahmu-hero, a
ugallu-demon, a rabid dog, a scorpion-man, umu-demons, a
fish-man, a bull-man, and eleven others underneath her
champion and new lover, Qingu. She gave Qingu the Tablet of
Destinies to facilitate his command and attack.
(Dalley pp. 231-249)
"The Epic of Creation (Enuma Elish): Tablets IV-V"
Marduk came with his host to attack her. Qingu's strategy initially
confuses him, and Tiamat tried to enspell him, hurling jibes at
him. She was rebuffed and incited into single combat with
Marduk. She continued to cast her spell and Marduk nets her,
and throws a wind at her. She tried to swallow it and was
undone - distended, shot, sliced in two and cut in the heart. Her
crushed skull heralded her death, and half of her body was used
to roof up the sky. Her eyes became the sources of the Tigris
and Euphrates rivers.
(Dalley pp. 249-257)
Marduk
son of Ea and Dumkina. He supplants the other Babylonian
deities to become the central figure of their pantheon. He is a
"King of the Igigi" He often works with and asks questions of his
father. He has fifty names many of which are those of other
deities whose attributes he usurped. He was of proud form and
piercing stare, born mature, powerful, and perfect and superior.
He has four eyes, four ears, and emits fire from his mouth when
he speaks. He is also gifted in magic.
Anu gave him the four winds to play with. When Anu's peace
mission to Tiamat fails, Ea urges him into action. He goes
before Anshar and the divine assembly and declares that he will
defeat Tiamat and lay her head at his feet, but that the assembly
must promise that he should be the one to fix fates and more or
less assume the role of the leader of the pantheon. Anshar,
Lahamu, and Anu find him a shrine and Anu instills upon him
the Anu-power in which, his word decrees fate. He is proclaimed
king and invested with the scepter, throne, and staff-of- office. He
is given an unfaceable weapon, the flood-weapon. He takes a
bow and arrow and mace. He puts lightning in front of him,
marshals his winds, makes a net to encircle Tiamat, fills his
body with flame. He rides his storm-chariot driven by Slayer,
Pitiless, Racer, and Flyer, poison-toothed, tireless steeds. He
had a spell on his lips and an anti- toxin in his hand. He led the
gods to battle. (P.251-252 Dalley) Qingu's strategy confused
him. Tiamat tried to enspell him and wheedled at him. Marduk
reproaches her and calls her out for single combat. She looses
her temper and they fight. He unleashes his weapons at her,
distended her body with winds, shot her in the belly with an
arrow, split her in two and slit her heart. He defeats the rest of
her forces and retrieves the Tablet of Destinies.
He smashed Tiamat's skull to herald her death and made half of
her body the roof of the sky. He leveled Apsu, measured it and
established numerous shrines for many of the gods. He set up
stands for the gods, constructed the heavens and regulated the
year, giving Shamash some dominion over the months and the
year. He made the Tigris and Euphrates rivers from Tiamat's
eyes and made mountains from her udders. He smashed the
weapons of Tiamat's army and put images of them at the gates
to the underworld. He set up his temple at Esharra and his seat
in Babylon. The gods honored him as king. He put blood and
bones together as and made early man to bear the work of the
gods, as in Atrahasis. For Qingu's part in the war he was made
to provide the blood for the creation of man. He divided the
Anunnaki and placed 300 to guard the sky, and six hundred to
dwell in heaven and earth.
-------
The symbolism of much of this is obvious, and this is the same
material which Sitchin explores in much greater depth and detail.
Interpretation is the key.
Absolutely. A worldwide cataclysm could cause ALL of the
events we're both describing, more or less simultaneously.
Dick, believe what you wish. There is much PHYSICAL
EVIDENCE, such as the water/flood-weathering of the Sphinx
and its enclosure, the sudden deforestation and desertification
of the once-verdant Sahara (where great salt flats still indicate
huge and sudden salt water deposits), and relatively recent
marine fossils found at high altitudes, to indicate that there was
a worldwide temporary deluge around 10 to 12 thousand years
ago. Given the possibility of much longer life-spans in pre-flood
antiquity, this could very well have been in "Noah's" time.
Thanks, Dick (I think!).
Dick, you have summed-up quite well my opinion of Churchward
and his own "created--" on what he saw as evidence, and his
own interpretations-- cosmology. BTW, I still like his stuff, and in
fact think he is often right about some (but not all!) things, such
as the existence of MU.
Aha!
Yes, and I do not always agree with Sitchin, although I do respect
his incredible research. But note that the
Biblical/Apocryphal/Pseudepigraphal accounts indicate that
"wicked mankind--" i.e., mankind tainted by breeding with the
Nephilim--and the Nephilim and their giant offspring
themselves--were the target of the flood. At least, if you put all of
the accounts together, this becomes very clear.
There is NO evidence, of any kind, to support Churchward's
theory of dinosaur extinction. The iridium layer, directly at the
Cretaceous Boundary, gives a good indication of the nature of
their demise, in the form of a celestial collision. Perhaps this
collision had something to do with the formation of the water
canopy! The strike was off the coast of what is now Yucatan, and
it was an ocean area then. Most of the water would have been
vaporized, but what if great quantities of this vapor were thrown
into orbit, to eventually form a liquid shell? There is simply much
that we don't know about what the overall effect could have been.
Nor could Churchward have known to make use of such
evidence, since it hadn't been discovered in his day. When you
quote so loyally from Churchward (who should just be one of
MANY sources, given his "dated" perspective on things), you are
quoting from a very dated source who is now somewhat
invalidated due to his limited knowledge (modern knowledge,
new discoveries, etc.).
When the chambers
Enough foliage and
Dick, I was referring to an atmosphere which was free of a liquid
roof or canopy, NOT to its constituent elements or percentage
thereof. But I HEARTILY DISAGREE with Churchwards ABSURD
hypothesis that oxygen-breathing animals like reptiles,
thecodonts, theraspids, etc. once BREATHED CARBON
DIOXIDE OR MONOXIDE in order to stay alive. Sentient life on
Earth, EVEN IN THE SEAS, draws life from OXYGEN, and always
has. Churchward was WRONG on this, pure and simple. You
are free to disagree, of course.
This certainly could be the case. In fact, the canopy could have
been of such size as to have been permeable from outside, but
self-repairing; this would still allow for cataclysmic collisions and
so on.
(LONG
Churchward),
Maybe there was an
It would seem that those accounts, along with those of dozens of
other cultures, are at LEAST as verifiable, and reliable, and
increasingly supported by new discoveries in the sciences, as
are Churchwards theories and musings. I daresay that they are
MORE verifiable and supportable, as far as I can see.
read?
As you can see, there is tons of evidence (re: the Sumerian and
Babylonian stuff). I could dig this stuff up all night, but I'm almost
too busy to even respond to this degree....
His initial work had nothing to do with his Jewishness. Yes, he
WAS brilliant. I believe he indicated that a comet struck Jupiter,
and the mass which became Venus was "ejected." From the
Jovian pole, I seem to recall!
And this is why they are immensely qualified to interpret ancient
Hebrew and Middle Eastern texts. But I'm not sure if your
statement about Sitchin is accurate, in terms of his "devotion" or
devoutness.
Thanks
argument? - Dick
Whew! Yes! We should be able to remain friends! Just don't
take offense if I see Churchward as relevant, but somewhat less
than authoritative!
Mike: Churchward's derogatory views about the Brahmin Priesthood and his "comparisons"with the Naacal Priests, I've always put on a shelf as iffy. Maybe true, maybe just a biased opinion on his part. But no more iffy than those posted on this list glorifying the Brahmin sect among the Aryans who "drifted" into B.C. India, or Dean's favorite themes, having these blond guys (is Dean blond?) pop up from a hole in the pole and populate upper India and Northern Europe!
India (purportedly) had great civilizations 25,000 years ago, long before the Aryans came on the scene. Isn't it just as possible the Brahmin Priests also would present themselves in the best possible light? And denigrate the people they replaced? True or false, right or wrong, that seems to be "human nature" for some humans.
Churchward also spent a lifetime in India, could fluently speak several languages and researched widely in India and Tibet. That should be noted if not respected
All my adult life I've looked at current and past geology and especially catastrophic events, which fascinate everyone, and observed that many of Churchward's unorthodox notions seem closer to truth and are more reasonable than many "scientific" notions on the same subjects embraced by orthodoxy - and by others. That doesn't make him a savant or authority about "any matter." Only those several real world subjects he tackled, and even on some of those I have a number of questions I won't mention here.
But talk about a "savant" on "any matter." Take Cater, who seems to have "soft particle" explanations for EVERY phenomena including non-physical astral traveling, etc., etc., etc. I'm amazed.
Unfortunately Cater apparently has never been very interested in studying the geology of the rocks that make up earth's shell. Not interested in that geology stuff.
I'm no academic on the subject either, but I APPRECIATE any researcher, like Churchward, who bothered to study the subject thoroughly BEFORE he made "authoritative" pronouncements about the construction of this planet and why and how it became altered over the many millions of years since it commenced. And he communicated his views simply and clearly to mentally challenged individuals like myself.
I read the passages of Cater that Dean posts and find some of them "challenging" to my comprehension, Doesn't make his reasoning wrong. But his writing doesn't always make sense to me. Sometimes he does. - Dick
Mike wrote: I do find that many of his ideas about the structure of the Earth have some merit, but there was a lot that Churchward, given the
amount of scientific and other information available during his
day, did NOT know, nor could not know and use to formulate
further theories. Therefore all of his work, postulations, and
theories, are severely DATED and OUT OF DATE, as there was
simply much he could not yet know and take into account!
Mike: Obviously, you're correct that the scientific and other knowledge abailable to him during "his day" was less than someone living today. But Churchward "OUT OF DATE"? He died in 1936 not 1836! The same idiotic belief in the (mythical) ICE AGE is still embraced by careless orthodox thinkers today as during "his day." Stupidity persists.
Is Maxwell OUT OF DATE? Is Newton (completely) OUT OF DATE? (Scott doesn't think so),Tesla? Einstein? How about the author of ETIDORHPA that Dean and you seem scientifically guided by? He wrote that before 1900! How OUT DATED can one get?
Some current NASA "scientists"seriously think they can "nudge" earth into a cooler and nicer orbit. That's UP TO DATE. Maverick Van Flandrin, recently stated on Art Bell's program that if the Sun sends (too) MORE "energy" to earth (absorbed INSIDE earth) than what earth can radiate out, earth may explode! He said: "That's why planets explode!" which I presume he was relating to the asteroid belt remnants he long ago asserted to be the remnants of an exploded planet. Van Flandrin's notion is unorthodox, but UP TO DATE. But do you, and any list members think NASA and Van Flandrin are correct? I don't.
Churchward's practical scientific expertise must have been significant as he was the hands-on owner and operator of Churchward International Steel before, during and some time after World War One (ancient history to you perhaps, but my Dad fought at Archangel against the Bosheviks). How he jumped into that field puzzles me. Maybe he learned some useful "secrets" from his study of the ancient tablets.
Churchward's step-grandaughter, Joan Griffith (he raised her orphaned father) told me some things about him last year. Among them, he was an inventor as well. Griffith wrote: "...his greatest achievement was the invention of NCV Steel (nickel, chrome, vanadium) which he subsequently sold to our War Dept. (Defense) in time to save allies' lives in WWI and in reality, was responsible for our side winning that war, from a turning point where the odds were on the other side (NCV was stronger and almost impenetrable)."
And this additional tidbit "...by 1918 when both Carnegie and Bethlehem Steel infringed Churchward International Steel, diverting the foreign patents for their own manufacture, Dad (her father was by then a patent attorney) was able to win both infringement suits for Churchy, with a judgment of $275,000 (equal to 30 million today's money), with which he published his 4 hardback Mu books (made later into 5 paperbacks) in the 1920's and early '30's."
When Churchward said geologists and physicists were mistaken in their belief the earth solidified from the center out, he knew what he was talking about. He claimed earth's SKIN solidified first. Part of his deduction was based on his work at Churchward International Steel...
At his Steel Company He had practical experience solidifying large molten masses down to atmospheric temperatures. The mass forms an outside SKIN of crystals and solidifies first. Then the next portion of matter inside cools and adheres to the first line. In cooling, molten matter from the middle to cool and adhere to the matter inside the skin .This continues progressively until the mass has solidified all the way to the center. The mass has cooled from the outside, inward, not as orthodox geologists and physicists, unschooled in steel mills, have presumed, and still do it seems! But the center crystals are weaker (and less dense). And if the free gases are not first withdrawn from the mass, and the cooling is too fast, the center crystals may break their adhesions, move to the skin, and a HOLLOW is formed in the mass. In the Steel industry they call this PIPING. Apparently bubbles can also form in the mass itself, ruining the casting.
The earth's crust, (if Churchward was correct that it formed from a giant nebula of super hot elemental gases), solidified from the highest possible temperature - and the free gases were NOT first driven out. The cooling molten matter inside the first line of crystals forming the initial outside skin, adhered to the first line of crystals and progressively, the gases cooled and adhered, continuing to adhere inward toward earth's center. But with the earth, the "PIPING" was apparently severe... a great hollow opened, and the volumes of free gases in the cooling molten matter ware "trapped" inside the crust as giant bubbles. In time, because of earth's rolling, they became flattened "gas chambers" of various sizes and vast numbers, throughout the entire crust, ready to carry out the Creator's subsequent "refining" of the becoming-brittle rocky shell. You've heard the rest of the story. That story apparently isn't even imagined by today's orthodox (and unorthodox) geologists and physicists! Dean thinks it is terrible orthodoxy doesn't even know Cater's "soft particles" exist. True.
But the same bunch of tectonic plate, continental drift theorists ALSO haven't any awareness of the great subterranean GAS BELT TUNNELS Churcward traced crisscrossing the earth, even beneath the floors of the oceans. And have no awareness earth's centrifugal force is driving along, to empty through volcano outlets, the volumes of explosive "free" gases still remaining deep in earth's crust.
Certainly ocean tides, the moon's pull and other outside factors must somewhat affect these gas belts and their moving contents. Possibly the movements of gases inside the belts are "pulled" upward or along, and stimulated into greater movement, by high surface water tides and magnetic influences from the moon or sunspots. Why not?
But note that SOME recent predictions of imminent earthquakes and volcanic eruptions by certain seers have not happened as predicted. Jim Berkland's Tides, and outside magnetic "pulls" cannot bring about the events if earth's centrifugal force cannot (at this time) gather sufficient volumes of gases to drive through the gas belt tunnels and erupt as volcanos, no matter the exterior high tides and magnetic pulling. "Nature" is still not perfectly predictable, it seems. - Dick
-------------------------------
Mike... of course "everything DOESN"T." But it is amazing how much does his notions relate to things posted on this "scientific" list - and in the current "scientific" data coming out in our national media! Because so much has been relevant to Churchward, I have pointed it out. It only seems that is all I refer to. But, yes, like Dean who looks through Cater-colored glasses about "scientific" notions, I tend to look through Churchward-colored glasses about the same "scientific" notions. Why not? He made more sense than many that occupy our universities, now and in the past, about MAJOR WORLD PHENOMENA.
I'm interested in the political scene, national and world affairs and many other subjects. I don't look through Churchward-glasses for those. - Dick
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even evolutionary-sequence, perspective.
Mike... Okay, I think. - Dick
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Mike... That's what I think. - Dick
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Mike... now I really must disagree. I believe there were MANY floods, MANY cataclysmic deluges... and a lot of other catastrophic events since earth formed its shell, that are NOT recorded in the writings you refer to. Other researchers have mentioned some of them, not just Churchward, or me. Mike, you SEEM to me to look at ALL of the above through undoubting scripture-colored glasses. I have some bible-bashing fundamentalist friends (who amazingly also believe in UFOs!) who tell me EVERY (English) WORD in the Old and New Testaments came DIRECTLY from God. The inspired writers just took dictation directly from the Man upstairs, they seem to think. Good grief! - Dick
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Mike.... You, Dean and the Puranas may be right about what you all said. (though I've forgotten specifics.)
But I think you're just speculating about what happened AFTER the fall of the HYPOTHETICAL "protective canopy." There's bound to have been some fiction in ancient writing just as there is fiction today. "Science" that you quote above, tells us many things we've often discovered are mistaken. Aging is a "disease?" caused by "Solar/Cosmic Radiation!" Mike, I'm a long time science fiction fan too. I remember reading that idea in several science fiction novels 30 to 40 years back! Right now I find that particular "science" assertion probable bunk. Maybe I'll change my mind later. Another reason for doubting it is the following...
Dr. Lorraine Day, the former chief surgeon at a California hospital who cured her own gigantic cancer tumor WITH NUTRITION, would also disagree. Dr. Day has been on Bell's program many times. She found that IF individuals eat a healthy diet (the kind she prescribes) long exposure outside to the Sun's rays (and cosmic radiation) they will not burn or suffer damage... and it will not cause them to age. But just the reverse for people with lousy American diets. Even a short exposure outside will cause damage. Give that some thought. Something "science" doesn't seem to be aware of when they assert the things above that you quote from "science." - Dick
-------------------------
Mike... thanks for that informative URL about Sumerian Mythology. Scanned through it quickly but attend to go back and read all. Seems a quite different presentation than Sitchin's with his "space opera" type science fiction stories. More down to this earth. When I earlier read 2 Gilgamesh books by different authors I found nothing to validate Sitchin's imaginative "space opera" INTERPRETATIONS.
Right, "INTERPRETATION is the key." You say that "Sitchin explores in much greater depth and detail." But according to loyal follower and Sitchin fan, Lyoyd Pie on a Dec. '97 radio interview, SAMUEL KRAMER translated most of the Sumerian tablets Sictchin is widely supposed to have personally translated. (Kramer is given passing credit as one of many sources in Sitchin's first book). Pie said Sithin INTERPRETED Kramer's translations! (which Pie, as you, it seems, thought hunky dory.). Personally Mike, I think many of Sitchin's INTERPRETATIONS are Sitchin Fantasies. Someone else agrees in the following...
About Sitchin, here's an excerpt from a recent letter from maverick Israeli political (and UFO) writer, BARRY CHAMISH on Rense's website. (Chamish wrote he had to drop out of all this UFO stuff because his political enemies and media in Israel were persuading people he was a Kook and therefore his political writings were suspect)....
(Chamish): "Cults
"Start with the Sitchin cult. Yes, he is an original thinker and deep scholar. No, there is not nearly enough proof that planet Nibiru is ending its 3400 year orbit and sending scouts to earth. What we have here is an interesting re-interpretation of Sumerian texts turned into a baseless belief system. And it contributes to the overall ridicule of UFO research... But not nearly as much as the Raelians' demand for a piece of sovereign Jerusalem territory to build a landing site for the Elohim. Or the mass suicide of ufonuts aiming for the mother ship trailing a comet. If you ask me, these groups are all funded as psy-ops by intelligence agencies utilizing UFO naifs for their own wicked purposes. And I walked right into one of these operations in Brasilia. I called it the Temple Of Doom and once I had a look around and gave my lecture, I got out of there fast and stayed away. The "Temple" was built by the League Of Good Will as the headquarters of its "world parliament." (my bold face stress - Dick)
-------------------------------
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Mike... obviously you are totally convinced the ONE and ONLY deluge happened 10 to 12 thousand years ago with a fall of the OCEAN canopy...and that was also might have been in Noah's time. Oddly, that's around the time Churchward claims MU plunged to the bottom after a forging gas belt penetrated into the 3 (formerly isolated) Archaen gas chambers holding MU's 3 lands above water. This caused the chambers to become OVERcompressed with additional gases. When the chambers surfaces could no longer stand the accompanying earthquakes and rising and falling of the surface, volcanos opened and blew out all gases. After the surfaces fell, the tidal waves moving out in reaction from those great holes washed over other lands. If the story is correct, volcanos opened on the edges of the chambers, volcanic explosions, suffocating poisonous volcanic fumes and flames surrounded the chamber surfaces, reached skyward, causing the skies to join in with rain and lightning bolts
Oddly enough, 10 to 12 thousand years ago was also when orthodox geology thinks the (mythical) giant glaciers covered the top (and bottom) areas of the earth started to melt in earnest, finishing up melting around 9,000 years back (around when Atlantis' surface collapsed). Remember, Geology, "science," says all that glacial ice, miles high (at both poles) lasted thousands of years (Their reasonable deduction)
So if you think Churchward was wrong and there WAS an ice age back then, that means that not only was there an ocean of water held aloft in a canopy, but most of the surface ocean waters were tied up in those multi mile high glaciers! An incredible picture of earth to visualize if that was true. Some Ocean bottoms exposed, non ice covered land sitting high and dry. And that great ocean somehow held aloft ready to swamp everything along with the melting ice caps, It's a wonder anything survived anywhere on earth and wasn't subsequently drowned.
In attempting to be sarcastically humorous Mike, I'm attempting to point out how BIZARRE is all this business of ice age glaciers, oceans of water held aloft only 10 to 12 thousand years back, etc Churchward, though OUT OF DATE, explained every phenomena and piece of "evidence" you wrote in your above paragraph.
Also, what NATURAL LAW can anyone provide to substantiate that an ocean of water was held aloft till very recent times? Mike, haven't you ANY doubts? - Dick
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Mike... suit yourself. MU never existed. Maybe Atlantis never existed. Continental Drift and Tectonic Plates may be true. Scriptures came directly from God so every word is probably true. etc. I guess there isn't much you and I can agree about. - Dick
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Mike... again you seem to BELIEVE every word in those "OUT OF DATE" texts. And every word of the English translations. Every word came direct form God and must be true. I don't agree. - Dick
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Mike... Now I'm losing patience. Your "NO evidence" statement is pure baloney! That impact of a comet destroying JUST the last of the dinosaurs is just inventive SPECULATION on the part of "nudge the earth" "scientists" in my opinion. And your "what if" about such vapor being thrown up and forming a liquid shell is just inventive speculation on your part. As inventive as the "nudge the Earth" guys.
Mike, I remember seeing a PBS documentary decades back where some scientists said the IRIDIUM layer (sure it was the same) you're writing about, was strangely ABSENT from separated areas of the world. Never heard it mentioned again. That's strange too. By what mechanism does that happen?
I've also been keeping up with all the Comet collision stuff in the media lately. You quote every one of them as GOSPEL facts because "scientists" have stated them. Those same "scientists" laugh at the idea of a hollow earth. Suggest you read David Pratt's online analyses if you're so certain modern "science" is so UP TO DATE and accurate. Sorry, I'm a born skeptic about the "scientific" pronouncements of today's "scientists," whom seem quite as accurate as our government officials! And boy do we trust every word those people utter!
Mike.... don't jump on every word. "Carbon-charged" or stating sulphurous fumes, etc., doesn't mean the ancient atmosphere was COMPOSED of such poisonous vapors. But they and many other noxious fumes were present, in percentages, at times, UNLIKE today (except in cities like Los Angeles!) Your broad extension about Carbon Dioxide, monoxide, etc is just an insulting invention on your part. Churchward never made such statements and I didn't either in the preceding. At least I didn't intend to give you such wild impressions. - Dick
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Dick
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Mike... maybe you're right. And maybe you're not. Perhaps we'll both find out in time. - Dick
Mike... Of course it didn't. Its just odd that both men came from Russia (decades apart), lived in Tel Aviv, wrote Cosmological treatises and in SOME of their writings attempted to prove Old Testament events were caused by their particular cosmological views.
And he said a "close" approach of the former "comet" Venus caused electrical damage to earth. But he had no proofs.
On the other hand, Ignatius Donnelley with his RAGNAROK comet , had PROOF the Chicago fire was NOT caused by Mrs. O'Leary's cow. In one of his books, he supplied copies of surrounding states' newspaper reports and many eyewitnesses about the close passage of a comet that literally burned up entire towns and farmhouses in Wisconsin and Illinois, killing many people during the same time the Chicago fire was going on. The national press (and apparently history books) ignored all these nearby catastrophes, concentrating only on the big conflagration in Chicago. Only Donnelly cared to report it. - Dick
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Mike... A former Catholic Priest (forgotten his name) who is now a die hard Sitchin believer and fan, has been on Art Bell twice. HE is the one who said Sitchin is a DEVOUT Jew. That surprised me too in the light of all this Annunaki stuff. - Dick
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Mike.... same here. But until you THOROUGHLY read all of Churchward's 5 books you'll never know for sure if his material is as unimportant as you think... or as important as I think. - Dick.
But let's make this stuff shorter next time. I'm worn out!
Dick, Churchward's work is still worthy of consideration and
respect. He just didn't have all the facts which are currently
available, that's all.
To compare him to the author of Etidorpha is not really
meaningful, since that book is, in my opinion, an allegory to
explain advanced physics which may exist within the Earth,
beginning at some level. To compare him and his "outdated"
scientific views or theories to ancient texts and traditions IS
relevant: Yes, the ancient sources are "outdated." That's
because they are ANCIENT. Yet they present more of a possible
history-preserved-as-myth sort of account of things, rather than
postulating supposed scientific facts based on assumed and/or
incomplete data, as Churchward did. I still think he was right
about MU, though. He should have stuck with that and not
delved into paleontology. Some of his geological material is
interesting, but not necessarily provable in any sense, ranging
from hard evidence to anecdote or folklore/mythical. He is
simply guessing.
This is irrelevant. I'm not denying that he was a highly capable
and rational theorist, just that he lacked sufficient data to make
many of his statements or postulations. If he lived now, his
ideas might be very different. But yes, his ideas are "out of
date--" TO AN EXTENT.
No, nor is Planck. Or Euler. Mathematics remain constant.
Ditto.
See above on this.
Maverick
I think that the NASA bit about "moving the Earth," if serious,
would be sheer insanity. Don't take it seriously: It's called
"justifying our funding and positions." In other words, these
particular theorists have to come up with something outrageous
to justify their "think-tank" funding from this or that agency or
source. A far more dangerous parallel is represented by the
idiots at Broohaven Lab who wanted to create "strange matter-" a
hypothetical self-replicating particle--in a their supercollider.
When physicists around the world protested that this could
potentially convert the entire planet into "strange matter" and then
a black hole, the imbeciles supposedly "backed down." Their
response? "We think the chances of this happening are
remote." In other words, it COULD happen. Last I heard, they're
still thinking about doing it.
Now THIS I could believe. The mysterious "nickel steel" column
in Benares, which has not rusted or corroded to this day, is over
a thousand years old. We still do NOT have the technology to
come close to creating such everlasting steel. So Churchward
may have learned secrets in this area, but wisely didn't publish
them! He may have just used them for business purposes!
Among them,
Hm, I strongly suspect he learned this secret from those who
held the secret of the Benares Stubum.
International Steel...
This also fits perfectly with the HET, by the way. Nearly all of the
following on his theory does as well.
The above fits with both HE and cavern-world concepts and
theories.
No offense meant, that is your right. I would see Churchward as
one teacher, as I would Cater, both of them with many or much
fact and knowledge to offer. I don't see them as
mutually-exclusive, though.
Dick
This "liquid atmosphere" description is used to describe
subsurface layers of ALL of the "gas giants." But as I pointed
out, even our oceans can really be viewed as "denser" layers of
our own atmosphere. This is just semantic, but relevant.
There is ample of evidence of human habitation and presence at
great oceanic depth. Oil drillers in the North Sea have routinely
dredged or sucked up flint knives, tools, etc. of obvious human
design. This is from significant depth. The Yonaguni ruins,
ruins off of Cuba, Bimini "road," and MANY other sites indicate
that ocean levels were once MUCH lower than they are today.
This is your answer....
Actually, they ARE recorded there, IN GREAT DETAIL. You just
are not familiar with the passages, but they are reproduced in
the last section of CCCC.
No, Dick, I consider all evidence and then simply look for
verification and supporting evidence. This is why my work
quotes from the Puranas, the Norse myths, Native American and
Celtic traditions, the Buddhist and Japanese/Chinese traditions,
and so on.
I think that you may be exhibiting something of a knee-jerk
rejection response to anything which is taken from Judaic or
Middle Eastern, or Biblical, sources. This is apparently based
on your OWN belief system which rejects the Judeo-Christian
one, and is not based on deductive reasoning. That's the way it
looks, anyway.
There's bound to
Dick, this is all well and good, yet is only pertinent to SYMPTOMS
and their treatment. Yet in addition to nutritional concerns, the
breakdown of Mitochondrial DNA and depletion of growth
hormone (the amounts of which are genetically-determined) are
related to free radicals and the body's ability to defend against
them. This is related to ULTRAVIOLET RADIATION LEVELS AND
ABSORPTION. UV also DESTROYS AND ALTERS DNA. Here is
a REAL report on the link between UV and aging (there is much
more data, but I don't feel like digging it all up):
"Despite the undeniable importance of cutaneous exposure to
ultraviolet radiation for vitamin D homeostasis, there is little
evidence to indicate that there are additional beneficial effects of
such exposure. Indeed, overwhelming evidence exists to support
the concept that the skin is damaged in many different ways by
its direct exposure to natural or artificial UVR. Some exposure is
virtually unavoidable over a lifetime and is dramatically dissimilar
in different populations depending upon climate, geography,
occupation, and recreational activities. The consequences of this
exposure are also influenced by factors such as the degree of
melanin pigmentation. The effects of UVR can be divided into
two general types, acute and chronic. Acute effects include
sunburn, and chronic effects include, among others, the
development of certain forms of skin cancer. In addition, the skin
is a major site of immunologic activity, and UVR is capable of
affecting the immune system via its effects on the skin. The skin
is also susceptible to degenerative changes evoked by chronic
UVR. These changes are a major component of the
constellation of physical changes perceived as skin aging but,
which in reality, are due to chronic photodamage.
"It is now possible to measure the effects of solar radiation on
the skin, and epidemiologic studies from around the world have
provided important new knowledge concerning the risks and
benefits of exposure to sunlight and UVR."
End quote. But there has been much research done in this area,
and you can find it if you care to look.
Looks like Richard S. Shaver was correct about that sweet
sunshine,though.
I never said that one and only one deluge occurred. In fact, I
believe strongly in a wide range of catastrophism theory. This is
made clear in my writings and research.
But yes, something of a GLOBAL nature, perhaps much larger
than many previous or later events, took place about 10 to 12
thousand years ago.
I think you should consider whether or not Churchward was
slightly WRONG here, and the "gas chambers" were actually the
"fountains of the deep," vast resevoirs of WATER. The "floating of
MU" effect would have been the same, and in fact MORE
PLAUSIBLE.
Yes, Dick. This is why Antarctica is "not really" still locked in an
"ice age." The geological evidence for the ice ages is quite
legitimate, and is supported by both glacial scarification and
debris, and the fossil record.
Dick, like anything else, it is a THEORY. But it is, in my opinion,
quite well-substantiated by circumstantial evidence, probably
more so than Churchward's "gas chambers."
agree. - Dick
No, you are utterly distorting what I have said. I said that this
evidence gives us an indication, an idea, etc. Not just the
Biblical quotations, but evidence from traditions worldwide. This
is just an anti-Judeo-Christian bias showing again, and
surfacing as ad hominem statements.
Sorry, I stand by my statement. Maybe all the carbon-breathing
Dinosaurs produced oxygen like plants? Maybe a dense layer of
dino-flatulence, accumulating over the ages, was somehow
converted into Churchward's "gas chambers?" Whatever the
case, these represent a large pockets of hot, stinky air.
Never heard that. Could you provide a modern and verifiable
reference? BTW, "worldwide" does not mean that it would
remain constant and consistent at every location. Geology and
weathering CHANGE THE EARTH'S SURFACE AND FORM.
There is enough of a vast iridium layer, accompanied by a vast
extinction in the fossil record, to support the theory. It holds more
credence than the dinosaurs, who were endothermic or
WARM-BLOODED (as are birds, their descendants), FREEZING
to death over a long period of time. The only freezing would have
been due to an equivalent of a "nuclear winter" after the impact,
and the duration of most species would have been a few months
at best. After this, the fossil record is almost blank for millions of
years. So much for Churchward's theories in this instance.
I'm also skeptical about many modern "science"
pronouncements and concepts. But I don't discount all of them,
or hard evidence for them, just as don't dismiss everything
Churchward had to say.
Dick, sorry, this was the impression you gave. A simple
misunderstanding, such as you experienced over my statement
about the state of the atmosphere over time. You ASSUMED that
I meant something which I did not say.
Yes, I don't think Sitchin has this reputation in Israel!
I read his books many years ago, and still have a couple of them.
I don't think his work is unimportant, I just don't think he was
always right, or held all the answers! But who is, or does? No
one of whom I'm aware!
Mike: Churchward's derogatory views about the Brahmin
Dick,
I feel that the South Indians, the Dravidians, also originated from
the hollow Earth. They must have " drifted " up from the Antartic
opening. I´ve seen a drawing from the last century of a Maori of New
Zealand wearing Vishnu tilak just like in South India. I know that
the Tamils could have traveled to Australia and New Zealand, but
Ultimately, their origin would have to be the Hollow Earth as life on
the surface of plants seems to be cyclic in its manifestation, for
many reasons.
or
No, I´m not blond. Again, civilization seems to get cyclically
manifested from the hollow portion. The Puranas come out and say
this, that at the end of a certain period, the Kali Yuga, the surface
gets re-populated from within. It makes sense- I don´t see anybody on
Mars.
Modern historians make the separation, but that civilization was not
unrelated to the civilization which lies in the hollow portion.
Isn't it just as
There are no brahmins anymore, that died out thousands of years ago.
All that there has been is a remanent, feudal caste system with
people on top claiming to be brahmins by birth right.
Let´s remember, though, to keep religion off the list except as it
relates directly to the HET. Since there are direct comments on the
HE in the Puranas, then we must examine the Puranas insofar as they
relate.
I´ll agree with you there! Churchward´s ideas about super-hot gases
forming tunnels and chambers and caverns underneath has made an
impact on me. You have made good contributions to the list by
bringing Churchward to our attention. However, you could encapsulate
things and summarize them. You don´t have to pass along such
extensive quotes. We´ll take your word for it.
Only
Dick-
All matter is comprised of particles. It is his intention to explain
all phenomena on the level of particles, and by the way, all matter
has a soft component, too- that´s why.
Cater is a particle physicist and has explained geo processes from
that standpoint. He doesn´t have to dance to someone else´s tune.
Snip, snip by Dean
Dick, The following anecdote about Churchward´s experience and
reasoning is educational. Still, if he were alive today, he might
have grafted other thinking, other processes onto his HE model. Be
open minded- I´m sure that he was. Read on, folks.
I must state that the idea of super-hot pockets of gas of vast size
are not unbelievable, as such areas probably still exist within
the mantle today.
Given the great thickness of the Earth, the depths beneath us,
and so on, I must concede that the existence of hot-gas regions
at one time, which exploded or deflated in some way, and the
concept of great aquifers or subterranean seas (which also still
exist, to some extent) are NOT mutually-exclusive. Both could
exist, presumably at different levels and in different strata. My
guess would be that the gaseous region (without help from
dinosaur flatulence) would have been at a much DEEPER level
than the watery one. This could explain the sudden violence of
the erupting "fountains of the deep," if the waters were driven
upward by underlying gaseous pressures, suddenly released!
So I offer my apologies as to the dino-fart observation.
If we look at these matters and theories closely, it often turns out
that they are NOT mutually-exclusive and in fact may support one
another.
It has also been reported that there are areas of the ocean floor
where great holes or openings exist, and water flows into huge
cavernous regions. At least one submarine has allegedly been
lost in an attempt to explore such a region. Has anyone else
heard this story?
We seem to have a few new members. I think that this is due to the poll on
the Vedic page which poses the question about Shambhala.
Some of you must have seen the link for the list and gotten on.Welcome
Just in order to be helpful, I'll point out that the home-page article on
the Arctic site also has some Eastern legend on it, the kind of stuff that
individuals who like the Vedic and Puranic evidence might enjoy.
The article is entitled Seven Days North of Tibet. It starts out with some
observations by Nicholas Roerich, who traveled in Tibet in the 1920s, and a
conversation between him and a Tibetan lama about the subterranean city
called Shambhala. then it works into the Arctic evidence and shows the
connection. Anyway, the " Oh Lama " stuff, as I like to call it, has been a
mainstay of hollow Earth evidence for a long, long time.
So if some of you new people haven't seen the Arctic page, go take a look,
because ironically, that's where I have some Tibetan stuff.
Laura Mc Donald has done some research! Let me fill you all in.
One and a half years ago I wrote several articles on the mention of the
hollow earth in the Vedic literature, specifically, the Puranas, which are
the Vedic historical narrations. In Hollow Earth in the Puranas I mentioned
three Puranic stories which relate to the hollow Earth. With reference to
one of them, I didn't really have much evidence in my hands. I am refering
to the narrations about the stealing of the sacrificial horse involving the
horse thief, er, uh, I mean, king of the demigods- Indra, and the sons of
Maharaj Sagara. The Purana which I have ( there are 18 ) just summarizes
this particular tale. I had, though, corresponded in relation to the story
with a South Indian brahmin from the Ramanuja sect who told me that the sons
of Sagara, while searching for the sacrificial horse, went to a " Northern
ocean " and entered into the hollow Earth.
But, of course, it helps to actually have something written in order to
substantiate what one speaks about, isn't that true? So although I dutifully
introduced this Puranic narration into the body of Hollow Earth evidence, I
always felt uncomfortable about having to rely on some brahmin whom I never
met ( after all, maybe he was drunk when he said that, who knows? )
# ;^ )
Anyway, that's why I spoke to Laura about maybe going to that library on
42nd Street in NYC and doing some investigation. She had to go a total of
three times and deal with impediments like summer help and such, but she got
the job done. She deseves some real credit because she has helped to
substantiate some of this Puranic evidence in relation to the earth being
hollow. Can you all imagine that she was nice enough to go three times,
spending several hours each time, just because somebody asked her to do a
favor? Man! Don't ask me any favors, I'm too busy!
If the Tibetan legends about Shambhala have had such an impact on the Hollow
Earth Theory, and they are only vague, verbal legends which exist in the
collective memory of the Tibetans, then what to speak of written
narrations.The Puranic mention of the hollow Earth theory is worth our
getting familiar with.
Anyway, the narration is attached, 2 1/2 chapters of it, and you all can
download it for safekeeping and read it at your leisure. Letme say a word or
two, though, before you start.
The Purana in question is the Brahmanda Purana translated by one Pundit
Tagore. We don't have the original Sanskrit, he just did a straight, English
translation. So we have to rely on him, who had no concept of the hollow
Earth, to convey the meaning of the Sanskrit terms. You will see what I mean
when you run across diverse terms like: " The interior of the earth, the
neatherworlds, beneath the Earth," ect. He didn't translate anything by
saying " in the hollow Earth." But what can you truly expect?
Mention is made of the sons of Sagara " digging " their way to the
netherworld. I can only assume that they had some mystic abilities, being
descendents of celestial beings ( even though they turned mean minded ),
and that they tunneled through the shell. The Puranas tell of the demigods
establishing and accompanying ruling dynasties on the Earth, so their
abilities wouldn't be simply normal. Brahma is the chief of the demigods, so
when their people on Earth went bad, you'll see that the other celestial
beings went to Brahma to complain.
Enough said, read the attached text.
Later,
Dharma/Dean
Yahoo Groups removed 1 attachment from this message: Sagara, Sons of.doc (application/msword)
Original subject: From: 1815: Spain's Mysterious Mt. Moncayo - Equal of Mt. Shasta
"About him grew plants he had never seen, some with wide thick leaves, and
others delicate and long like floating ribbons. Half hidden in that humid
foliage were running about a number of estraordinary creatures, some of them
manlike, some reptilian, or both at once (my emphasis--J.T.)"
"There, darting in all directions, running across the floor in the form of
repugnant, hunchbacked dwarves (aliens?) scrambling up the walls, running
along...So there they were keeping stored up in heaps all manner of rare and
precious things. There were jewels of inestimable worth; chains and
necklaces of peals and exquisite gems, golden jars of classic form, full of
rubies; chiseled cups; armor richly wrought; coins with images and
superscriptions that it is no longer possible to recognize or decipher...And
all glittered together, flashing out such vivid sparks of light and color
that it seemed as if the whole hoard were on fire."
Great Report Laura. I enjoyed it immensely and am saving it. A wealth of information in your research, plus verification once again for a HE. Wonderful!
Here is a cross post froma Vedic list which I am on.
Regarding this
current discussion about a 'hollow' Earth, i must say
something. While there are vast caverns which extend for
miles, and hollow magma tubes and collapsed volcanic
cones / flues, and other amazing features on Earth, the term
'middle' Earth, from the Sanskrit 'madhya' was commonly
used in the ancient world for the Mediterranean Basin.
Dear Bhakti Ananda Goswami,
I would like to respond to your comments on the Hollow Earth Theory. I will place a star in front of my paragraphs in order to differentiate my comments from yours.
Although there are various bodies of hollow Earth evidence, i.e., Arctic, astronomical, geological and legend, I guess that I should begin by saying that I am uncomfortable with the interpretations which you have imposed on the Puranic comments and story lines in regard to the hollow cavity of the Earth. And I do mean " interpretations." The Puranic account of the Parasurama Avatar is clear. The context of the story is a globe and the face of the Earth. While speaking in a descriptive tone, the Bhagavatam mentions the face of the Earth, Prithivi, the surface as a whole is implied, not a limited geographical area such as India as opposed to the Mediterranean. The narration describes the cardinal directions on the prithivi and then mentions the " madhyatah," the middle part in relation to " the directions." The four directions on the face of a globe have no middle part. Only one conclusion is cohesive, that the stary is referring to the middle part of the planet. How you carry over the obvious context of the Puranic narration to the Mediterranean Sea all of a sudden is beyond me, me thinks that you have indulged in some tremendous word jugglery.
Similarly, the narration of Sons of Sagara contains repreated, obvious comments in relation to the hollowEarth. The idea is that they " dug " at one point in order to arrive there. Not that they flew over to the Mediterranean Sea, nor that they flew down to planetary systems which are below the plane of the Earth's orbit. " Dug " implies that the motion was inwards. By the way, I have posted that piece from the Brahmanda Purana on my Hollow Earth Vedic site with notes of explanation, specifically, an explanation on how such digging through the Earth's shell could have been accomplished by the princes. It is at the top as of today: HugeDomains.com
Latin and Sanskrit are related, and for many centuries
( actually to the present ) the MEDI - TERRA - nean was
called the 'Middle' Earth (Terra).
For convenience, I have snipped your comments about the Mediterranean and a few others. I would liketo address the comments below.
Scriptures should be read theologically and realistically.
They are also poetry / art, science and so many things all at
once. However, we should be careful not to superimpose
meanings on scriptures according to some recent pseudo-
science or non-traditional speculation.
Excuse me, but I am the one who is being realistic and who has kept to the original meaning. You have imposed and speculated.
I have also been
hearing anti-semitic 'reptillian' alien conspiracy non-sense
associated with the 'hollow Earth' / UFO / demigods and
root-races ideas. In fact, someone recently asked me if
Krishna was a god who came from the hollow Earth !
The Kalki Avatar will hail from the hollow Earth. The narration about the Sons of Sagara from the Brahmanda Purana substantiates that Ayodhya, for example, is on the surface, which we all know anyway.
Much
of the 'Shastric' evidence for these ideas is totally mis-used,
and has no such history of interpretation.
There is all kinds of nonsense and misinformation on all subjects, including philosophy. How can you group in my presentation with those other things? What do they have to do with it? Just because somebody takes the truth the wrong way doesn't diminish the validity of the truth. There are psychologists who reject the doctrine ofreincarnation like that. They say that the idea makes people lose their spirit of free will to some kind ofpre-determined acceptance ofdestiny. Does this mean that reincarnation does not exist, then?
Just as with
'ARYAN' and other abused Sanskrit terms, Anglo-Germanic
Racists, Muslims, New Age Neo-Gnostics and others have
appropriated the terms and mis-used / corrupted them.
What does the abuse of the term " aryan " have to do with the configuration of our planet? Although you accused me off-list of indulging in this abuse, my article The Hollow Earth and the Aryan Invasion Redefined favors the terms Caucasian throughout. I did it that way so as not to offend or shut anyone out. The point that I make is that the remenents of Vedic culture, and a race which which is closely associated with that culture, happens to be situated at the door step of the opening to the hollow Earth, just above Siberia and Arctic Russia. Remember that Bal Gangadhar Tilak wrote The Arctic Home of the Vedas- it is just that he wasn't able to take the base of Vedic culture far enough North, i.e., in through the polar opening.
A
case in point is the term NAGA. The 'reptillian' speculators
like to use references to the NAGA dynasts. They are
unfamiliar with the broader language context of the word-root
NG and its several meanings...NAGA Serpent, NAGA
Elephant, ANGA angle (what is bent or curved), and ANGA
Ankle, limb (or foot). They also don't understand that the
term 'NG - foot' was used to identify an ancient people
whose SPEACH was characterised by the use of the NG
root for both Serpent and Foot.
Maharaj-
You are speculating a mile a minute right now. But it has no bearing on the matter of the Earth's hollow world, so I won't get involved in this one at the moment.
I have snipped your further comments on Nagas for canvenience.
So, please my dear Vaishnavas, do not allow yourselves to
be misled by Anglo-Germanic Aryo-sophic racists who are
abusing and mis-interpreting our Scriptures to promote their
insane, hateful alien conspiracy ideas.
What does this have to do with the Hollow Earth Theory? I am accepting the straightforward meaning of the scripture, you are the one who is stretching the meanings here. And how do you know that there are no alien conspiracies? I have culled a description ofthe abduction of Duryodhana which says otherwise. It is originally from the Mahabharat, but my direct source was Alien Identities. The story is posted as The Abduction of Duryodhana at the top of my Vefdic HE site: http://skywebsite.com/hollow/Vedic-Hollow-Earth/index.html
If manipulation of the royal order by Danava demons was going on 5,000 years ago, what to speak of nowadays.
Very intelligent
mentally ill people can construct very convincing
rationalizations for their paranoid delusions and fixations.
The further I read your posting, the more obvious this is becoming to me. Take an aspirin!
I have presented the Hollow Earth Theory in relation to various bodies of evidence on my various sites. The different sites may beseen on the home page of my vedic HE site, same address as above. I have definitely asdressed the theme from a scientific viewpoint, i.e., physics, gravity, geology, astronomy. I am sensible and so are the hollow Earthers with whom I associate on the internet.
I will throw out one more tidbit. I have attached a NASA photograph above. It shows the atmosphere of Venus blowing out through the Southern end of the planet. It is hard to interpret the image otherwise. And as far as the Northern opening on Venus is concerned, know that there is a NASA study called " Vortex " because thereis an atmospheric whirlpool above the VenusianNorth pole- the atmosphere is getting sucked in one end and expelled out the other! Examine the photo yourself. It's NASA number is: 79-HC-46. It is all there on the Venus page of my Vedic site.
I think that you have been rather fanatic, arrogant, and not very elegent.
I wrote the guys at the Farshores site andtoldthem about the list. We'll see if they respond. They had some good info, to tell the truth. There are always good things in any site, but they had a higher average, I think.