Hi Hazel,
I was not offended by anything you said. Like you, practically all non-Mormons stumble over the concept of polygamy--and yet Mormons, who do not accept the practice of polygamy, embrace the theory and doctrine of it, strange as it seems. Makes you wonder, but there are some good reasons for this.
Mormon doctrine is analogous to mathematics. For the same reason you can't teach algebra to someone who has yet to learn elementary math (or ME), one cannot introduce polygamy, "spiritual wives," or the doctrine of eternal marriage (as we understand it), or temple ordinances, man's divine potential, and such doctrines, and have the listener really understand what we mean. At the same time, the ancients, such as Abraham, knew of and practiced plural marriage. Is it possible that it comes from God? The problem with polygamy is trying to practice it in this life. It actually makes perfect sense in heaven. Why?
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First you have to learn to accept the notion of modern revelation. Without it, you're relying solely on ancient note-takers and whatever you can divine from reading the Bible yourself. Sure, you can glean much, but someone's got to make sense of the confusion, and hence, the Lord must have spokesmen, as well as an organization to perform his ordinances and teach his gospel.
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Was Joseph Smith a prophet? This can be determined only after a personal and spiritual study of him and the LDS church and the Book of Mormon. But you have to wonder, how could a liar, fraud, (and I suppose adulterer, if he were a polygamist), have produced the fastest-growing and most honorable Christian church in the world? It is rumored Joseph had as many as 50 wives--and yet, he never had a single child by anyone other than with his wife, Emma. How can a man with 50 wives not produce any offspring? Why does his wife swear he was faithful? Doesn't your average polygamist produce a litter of kids?
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Doctrinally, the LDS feel we've been given layers of revelations through Joseph that have shed a great deal of light concerning the sociality that exists in the next life. First, the Lord told Joseph that Godliness is possible to attain for men and women--meaning, having the capacity to progress to that end. (I don't mean suddenly becoming as smart and all powerful as God. This concept is taught in the same respect that my son has the capacity to become like me--so I'd better be a darn good person!)
Further, in order to maximize our potential, we must be married by the authority of his priesthood. So who holds this authority? Those at the helm of his church. Also, he told Joseph that marriage is only performed on earth (which supports Biblical claims), and hence, one main reason for the temple ordinance of marriage. This work can be done during the Millennium, so it's not going to be "too late" for those who have died. God's plan isn't like a Disney Land ride--nobody's going to close a gate on you except yourself.
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Gender matters. It mattered before we were born and it matters in the next life. If you must be married to enjoy the kind of endless progression that God enjoys, logic suggests that God himself is married. He doesn't tell us this out of respect for his mate; but we can safely infer that this true. Now, what if God had many wives? Would that make plural marriages wrong? No. What makes it wrong is the same force that has ruined this world and stymied human progression--Satan.
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If marriage were necessary, what if there were more women than men who qualify for the highest degree of heaven? Odds are that's true because women are better than men. And in the next life, we know Satan's influence will not be there, and we'll say goodbye to jealousy, envy, anger, hate, lust--all those emotions that connote adultery and hurt people and make polygamy bad.
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Is plural wives a requirement for the highest degree? No. One mate I'm sure is plenty. And if you don't marry, one still may reside in the highest glory--you just wouldn't have that capacity for endless progression through posterity.
Imagine your best friend or your sister goes through life and never finds a mate, but desperately wants and needs one in the next life, and there just aren't enough men to go around. You will probably be more than happy to share yours. From what I've learned in life, the emotion of love is awfully rampant in heaven.
Joseph Smith these things and a whole lot more, and so was compelled (maybe commanded?) to seal (marry) himself to many women in the temple. So yes, he may have had 50 wives but I don't think he had sex with them, so it doesn't bother me as long as he was an honorable, righteous man. Doesn't make him less of a prophet than Abraham.
Blake
···
-----Original Message-----
From: Hazel [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Monday, June 18, 2001 2:20 PM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: [allplanets-hollow] New Guy: Secret Societies?
Dear Norlan, I'm sorry you were so offended by my flippant comments, I am often facetious about subjects, as you pointed out and I pointed out, I do not fully understand. However, I did not say ANYTHING detrimental about the Mormon faith, if I did I apologise again. Freemasonry on the other hand, from what I've read, is embroiled in conspiracy, I may be wrong but I'm entitled to speculate, if that's paranoia, I'm guilty. But I'm not pointing the finger at anyone except the Lord of Darkness, when it comes to manipulation of the denizens of Earth. I have learned to be suspicious from studying ufology. Hazel
----- Original Message -----
I'm amazed at the varying degrees of what gets posted on this site. We move from what seems to be serious discussions of very fascinating scientific topics of soft particles, and Oregon energy, and ether detection and measurement, to outright ignorant comments and accusations of religious groups being on Satan's payroll in their efforts to control society. Hazel, up until now, I have enjoyed reading most of your postings because you appeared to be a person who is somewhat informed and seemed to be seriously looking for truth and answers like the rest of us. However, newcomer Terry, in his introductory comment, which revealed his own bias and ignorance aswell, allowed you to exposed yourself for what you are.
To make the kind of statement you made in response to Terry's conspiracy paranoia, reveals that you are not an inquisitive searcher of truth, but rather, represent the more dangerous kind of thinker who is quick to accuse and condemn others of which you have basically no knowledge whatsoever. Your "either/or" argument, that entire groups of totally unrelated societies or religious affiliations are unitedly acting as coconspirators for the purpose of "either" misusing or corrupting ancient truth and knowledge through their ignorance as a whole, "or" that they are hoarding this truth and knowledge for their own selfish selves, as being the only two options of possibility, only expose your own biased ignorance. Ever heard the song, "One Tin Soldier?" Do I hear Valley People mentalityhere?
I could go on and on in pointing out just how uninformed you are, but it's not worth my time. As for Terry, welcome to the site, however, I am personally offended by your ignorant comments. I use the term ignorant in this context not as one who is stupid, but in the correct definition as that of one being uninformed. Unfortunately, a lot of the misunderstandings in the world today are fostered by the overreactions or misinterpretations of the partially or mis- informed. So, perhaps I can inform you where you are lacking correct information. I happen to be a Mormon, or more correctly, a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and, no, Mormon Churches are not Masonic, nor are they constructed in strategic places to hide secret entrances to "otherworld" domains. We are not affiliated with Delta forces, or anyone other groups which you generalize as being all in this conspiracy together. The only connection that your resources have used to exaggerate the Mormon/Mason affiliation is that there are some similarities in the spiritual ceremonies in the temples of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and that of the Masonic rites. The source of these ceremonies and rites come from the Temple of Solomon of Old Testament fame. The Latter-day Saints have the complete restored ceremonies and the Divine Ordinances which accompany these sacred things, whereas, the Masons have partial aspects of the sacred ceremonies of Solomon's Temple which have been handed down from generation to generation and have become somewhat distorted and fragmented in the process. None of these LDS things are secret. However, they are considered very sacred by those who have participated in them. They include things like an Eternal Marriage ceremony between husband and wife, which, if the participants are true to the covenants of devotion and loyalty to each other, then these marriages are promised to last throughout eternity, along with their family structure as well. They also include ordinances which show a devotion to God by promising to keep his commandments and fulfill the ordinances which He has prescribed. These ordinances also include doing work for the dead, which merely means that we perform ordinances such as baptism, in proxy, for our own ancestors as well as others who have died before having the opportunity to perform these ordinances for themselves. We believe that these ordinances are necessary to be performed here on this earth, as God has commanded, so that the blessings affiliated with them can be had for all mankind in our heavenly rewards for obedience. We believe that God, in all his wisdom and fairness, has provided this way in which those who weren't aware of these commandments will have the opportunity to accept them done ontheir behalves.
We believe that these temples are sacred places where Christ, Himself, could tarry here on this earth, if He chose to do so, and as such, we believe that the sites selected for these temples are also on hollowed ground. In some cases, these sites have been selected and dedicated hundreds of years, and even centuries before the temples are ever built upon these sites. Not because of the secret aspects of what these sites might hide, but rather, the sacred and dedicated nature of the places where they are located. The Masons have lost these aspects of the temple ceremonies, but rather, as I understand them, and I am no expert on Masonism, the Masonic rites are more involved in the progressive nature of the Temple Ordinances. This is also part of the LDS Temple Cerimonies. In the LDS Temple, through a process of covenants of righteousness, and through the information which is provided in these ceremonies, we learn the process in which we can return to our Heavenly Father's presense in the highest Celestial degree of glory in God's Heavenly Kingdom. This includes certain sacred signs and tokens which will allow us to pass through certain checkpoints of worthiness and by the guardians of these checkpoints of the heavenly realms. The Mason's emphasize this aspect of the Temple Ceremony. Thus, they emphasize the signs and tokens of this process, which have been somewhat distorted, yet they treat these things with more of a secretive nature than do the LDS. Our only stipulation in receiving this information, is that those receiving it are worthy of the caretaking of these sacred things, lest it be to their condemnation. We encourage all to attain this worthiness and to partake in the ordinances thereof, so that they might also receive the blessings predicated on thisobedient participation.
Now, Hazel and Terry, you can take this how you will. But, I would hope that you might be a little less suspicious, and a little less misinformed. I'm not saying that there aren't secrets being held by certain powers, that very well may be the case. But what I am hoping is that you don't catagorize everyone and everything that you don't understand into this all encompasing conspiracy plot. We are all seeking the truth about this earth and the means by how it was created. Let's keep working together in this effort instead of starting to point ignorant accusing fingers in all directions where we don'thave any understanding. It works both ways. . .
. . . Like, . . . I can tell you one thing which I've heard is true. What I heard is that all persons named Terry or Hazel who prescribe to this site, are idiots . . . But perhaps that would be an over generalization now, wouldn't it. And, it's probably not even true . . . is it. So, maybe I shouldn't be passing it on like it was true. . . should I. Unless I wanted to reveal my own state of ignorance. . . that is. Let's be careful who we are accusing of earning paychecks. Things we don't know about aren't always bad. Maybe there are guadians of entrances to the interior of the earth for good reasons. Maybe they are reserving that knowledge to those who prove worthy of its caretaking as well. Let's all try and earn that knowledge together.Norlan
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